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www.DunbarPlumbing.com
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Discussion Starter #1
warranty?




Think about that folks.


10 years is a short life in plumbing as we know it. Will it destroy itself 10 years 1 day after installation? Doubt it.



But what if that piping is already deteriorating before then, and let's say 11, 13, 15 years down the road this piping is starting to show signs of failure, and the mfg. of the product is already, YEARS out of the window of liability.


Guess where that leaves you and your customer, looking at you wondering how your product recommendation just cost them a bundle.


Are you a risk taker? Are you willing to take chances with products that have short lifespans in regards to liability?


I certainly don't, or at least I don't intentionally 'look' the other way when this comes about and parade about saying 10 years is a given rule of reliability. It isn't, and it won't be.

Consider the costs involved when products are installed in concealed locations and when they fail, they are extremely expensive to repair.

I can't do that to my customers because I want to get by easy and work easy, not put the effort up like I do now to perform work duties.

I don't mind doing a plumbing system correctly, installing something I can be proud of and not make it look like pedro gonzales riding in the back of a pickup truck working for cash did it.

If you can show me the difference between those two installations without the reality that it's so easy a caveman can do it,


entertain me with a rebuttal.


Oh look! Fodder!


http://www.viega.net/cps/rde/xbcr/en-us/PF-warranty-0907.pdf
 

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warranty?




Think about that folks.


10 years is a short life in plumbing as we know it. Will it destroy itself 10 years 1 day after installation? Doubt it.



But what if that piping is already deteriorating before then, and let's say 11, 13, 15 years down the road this piping is starting to show signs of failure, and the mfg. of the product is already, YEARS out of the window of liability.


Guess where that leaves you and your customer, looking at you wondering how your product recommendation just cost them a bundle.


Are you a risk taker? Are you willing to take chances with products that have short lifespans in regards to liability?


I certainly don't, or at least I don't intentionally 'look' the other way when this comes about and parade about saying 10 years is a given rule of reliability. It isn't, and it won't be.

Consider the costs involved when products are installed in concealed locations and when they fail, they are extremely expensive to repair.

I can't do that to my customers because I want to get by easy and work easy, not put the effort up like I do now to perform work duties.

I don't mind doing a plumbing system correctly, installing something I can be proud of and not make it look like pedro gonzales riding in the back of a pickup truck working for cash did it.

If you can show me the difference between those two installations without the reality that it's so easy a caveman can do it,


entertain me with a rebuttal.


Oh look! Fodder!


http://www.viega.net/cps/rde/xbcr/en-us/PF-warranty-0907.pdf
I tend to believe too much value is put on manufacturer's warranties. The warranty on domestic copper is 50-years and includes installation. I am not sure that includes ensuing damages which could cost much more than replacing the pipe. Now read the warranty for a PEX manufacturer

"It is expressly agreed that the exclusive remedies under this limited
warranty shall be at the option of ******, Inc. to: issue a refund,
repair or replace any article which is proven to be defective.
Allowances made to customers for transportation, labor, repairs, or
any other work, are at the discretion of ****** and must be
authorized in writing, in advance by ******."

I'm not an Attorney but to me it looks like they could refund you the cost of a single foot of pipe that blew out and at their discretion cap their responsibility at that.

Mark
 

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I'm not sure why you're so hung up on the warranty issue but I guess it's about all you have left to argue about since nobody installing "quality pex" is having problems with it. Millions of feet a year being installed without problems, think about it.

Copper also has a warranty, mind printing that one or should I? ALL copper companies warranty their pipe against MANUFACTURE DEFECT, That's all. They don't warranty against aggressive water conditions or anything else. Why does copper pipe fail? How many manufacture defect calls do you get? How many calls do you get for pin holes, thin pipe etc.?

Once again, your claims are baseless and you have no facts to back up your "could happen", "might happen" type posts. I'll continue installing what I think is the best quality product on the market today and so will the thousands of other plumbers out there doing the same.

Regarding your question, would I as a business owner? Hell yes I will!
 

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When did you start asking questions like that?
1. Putting in a product with a ten year warranty does not imply that anyones concerns stop at ten years. You jaded the question to snare anyone who would, with "aha, you dont care as much as me".
2. Cpvc had a 25 yr warranty which became worthless after the manuf. split from the distributor or chemical co. whatever. A lot of happy cpvc users--including engineers , architects, and some other people who are just maybe smarter than plumbers, as highly doutbful as that sounds. And I dont like cpvc.
3. Pex is coming, pex is coming, and the copper industry, the few the proud plumbing professionals, the "it was good nuf fo grampa and good nuf fo me" crowd are about to be run over, truck backed up and run over again.( entertained yet?)
 

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Polybutlyene is still approved, so why are you not still installing it? You can buy it and the fittings. The codes all still allow it, so what's stopping you? Could it be that you have no faith in the product due to all the lawsuits and failures? Hell, there's thousands of mobile homes out there with poly in them and as of today they have not failed yet. So why not go back to polybutlyne? How would you know if there are problems with pex unless someone reports it?
 

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Polybutlyene is still approved, so why are you not still installing it? You can buy it and the fittings. The codes all still allow it, so what's stopping you? Could it be that you have no faith in the product due to all the lawsuits and failures? Hell, there's thousands of mobile homes out there with poly in them and as of today they have not failed yet. So why not go back to polybutlyne? How would you know if there are problems with pex unless someone reports it?
This is fun.
Well---you gotta keep trying till you get it right. If Edison didnt keep trying no night service calls. How many persistent brave souls have pushed forward in the face of... well you get it.
Maybe this is it. The solution of all piping solutions. Ladies and gentlemen I present to you PEX.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I'm not sure why you're so hung up on the warranty issue but I guess it's about all you have left to argue about since nobody installing "quality pex" is having problems with it. Millions of feet a year being installed without problems, think about it.

Copper also has a warranty, mind printing that one or should I? ALL copper companies warranty their pipe against MANUFACTURE DEFECT, That's all. They don't warranty against aggressive water conditions or anything else. Why does copper pipe fail? How many manufacture defect calls do you get? How many calls do you get for pin holes, thin pipe etc.?

Once again, your claims are baseless and you have no facts to back up your "could happen", "might happen" type posts. I'll continue installing what I think is the best quality product on the market today and so will the thousands of other plumbers out there doing the same.

Regarding your question, would I as a business owner? Hell yes I will!

Tuff day ain't it buddy. :laughing: Pull yer panties tight cuz this show ain't over yet.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I tend to believe too much value is put on manufacturer's warranties. The warranty on domestic copper is 50-years and includes installation. I am not sure that includes ensuing damages which could cost much more than replacing the pipe. Now read the warranty for a PEX manufacturer

"It is expressly agreed that the exclusive remedies under this limited
warranty shall be at the option of ******, Inc. to: issue a refund,
repair or replace any article which is proven to be defective.
Allowances made to customers for transportation, labor, repairs, or
any other work, are at the discretion of ****** and must be
authorized in writing, in advance by ******."


I'm not an Attorney but to me it looks like they could refund you the cost of a single foot of pipe that blew out and at their discretion cap their responsibility at that.

Mark

But you definitely understand the wording, clearly like me and many others that they are cleverly making sure they hold no claims against their own products after a certain timeline.


I can see them pointing fingers at themselves stating "look, we only offered 10 years and that should of rang a bell in your head that something quite ain't right, in draw comparison to the industry standard."
 

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Discussion Starter #10
This is fun.
Well---you gotta keep trying till you get it right. .


That is where you've got it all wrong.

When you buy a new set of brake pads and find out at 10,000 miles that you don't stop anymore, are you concerned?

When you put a new shingled roof on your home, do you buy the 10 year shingle? :laughing:


Too many innocent victims are subjected to financial hardship when plumbers/installers install products that don't have proven reliability records.


I want you to cut out a 25 year old piece of PEX and bring it to this forum, show us what it looks like, show us how it handles adaptation to new barbed fittings or compression connections.


It is an awesome feat to be able to sustain a business and not have to follow trends like some of you do just to stay competitive. It's not happening on my dime and I'll gladly leave myself out of the equation until someone starts showing 30-50 years of this spaghetti **** running through the walls is going to make it past my 50th birthday.


You all would have a solid case if there wasn't so many issues with the different brands already....but "some" of us see the same pattern of plastic piping following a tradition that no one can change. That's just the nature of plastic, period.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
When did you start asking questions like that?
1. Putting in a product with a ten year warranty does not imply that anyones concerns stop at ten years. You jaded the question to snare anyone who would, with "aha, you dont care as much as me".
2. Cpvc had a 25 yr warranty which became worthless after the manuf. split from the distributor or chemical co. whatever. A lot of happy cpvc users--including engineers , architects, and some other people who are just maybe smarter than plumbers, as highly doutbful as that sounds. And I dont like cpvc.
3. Pex is coming, pex is coming, and the copper industry, the few the proud plumbing professionals, the "it was good nuf fo grampa and good nuf fo me" crowd are about to be run over, truck backed up and run over again.( entertained yet?)


When are you going to put a 10 year shingle roof on your house?


I wouldn't put a 10 year shingle roof on my house....and now someone wants to put a water pipe with water pressure in a house that only has a 10 year mfg. warranty?

You've got to be kidding me.

If you got anyone to be upset with...be it ironranger since his obsession with a product that excludes all responsibility from the mfg. after 10 years is his gig, not mine.

I'm just the messenger like I've been all along. :whistling2:

Don't stop putting in PEX in because of my views. By all means,


JUST DO IT.


And when things head south and stuff starts splitting, leaking, bursting, dripping, closing up like some of the other stuff that's going on with this family of piping...


I'm going to catch it like glue on a fly trap. :thumbup:
 

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The truth is there are no guarantees with anything, even the tried, tested, and true Copper pipe & fittings.

I would rather have PB installed properly, protected, and done with pride, in my house, then someone who does a hack job of Copper who doesn't protect it, run it properly, doesn't wipe their joints while soldering, uses serious Acid Flux, etc.

Personally I endorse utilizing Pex Pipe (mainly Pex-A like Wirsbo or Rehau), not because it is cheaper than the guy quoting Copper, but because a good quality Pex-A, if installed properly and protected, I personally feel will last a very long time, and it is a good product.

And I'm even a bigger fan, in limited instances, of utilizing Fusion of Polypropolene pipe.
 

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Hey Duck, we hear ya man! You're strong in your ways, you like the old style and you hate change. Ok, I respect that and there's no need to get into a pissing match about who's right or who's wrong because there isn't an answer. Bottom line is you say something bad might happen, sort of calling wolf. Maybe it will all fall apart some day and you can say you were right. I'm saying it hasn't happened and if you ask me it has a pretty good track record so far and myself and thousands of others aren't afraid of it.

The world keeps spinning and change is an absolute, history doesn't lie. We're going through some great exciting times in the plumbing world right now and yes as another poster mentioned sometimes we don't get it right the first time but we will. It doesn't make us any less of a plumber, our fathers and their fathers went through the exact same thing. Maybe try taking a positive stand on some of this stuff, get involved more with the industry, get a little more education, learn all you can. You just might find it's more than just the same old same old.

I have no problem puting my name and my reputation on quality products like wirsbo and Viega, no problem at all and I will continue installing the products. You know Duck, you have yet to say even one thing to deter me from using pex. You need to do a lot better! hahahha

I still to this point have not heard even one bad thing on the news or from a single plumber about wirsbo or Viega, not even one single thing. I would like to know just what this huge catastrophe is going to be I keep hearing about from you? The fittings are a solid bronze, used for decades without problems. The cross linked pex is friggin bullet proof and I'm sure will outlast my life and most likey my sons and their sons.

If you're going to worry about anything I guess it would be that after this quality product is installed they won't need us anymore! LOL
 

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My dear duck,
1. I would put a 10 year shingle on if the labor wasnt so high and if I needed a new roof and 10 year shingles made it happen when 30 year wasnt the right price--but thats not a good enough example--but I get the point.
2. Really, the big concern here is not with the possible helpless masses about to be unwittingly abused by scalawag plumbers in pex uniforms.

I know the real issue.
Change for the most part has brought cheapening, even unscrupulous cheapening, loss of jobs( American jobs) , new hurdles for an enterprising business man to face with the ever downward price option fueled by changes, a loss of respect to the craftsmen ideals of doing high quality work because the clamor is for a lower price without regard to consequences.
The plumbing industry isnt the father of this baby. Look around, check some history--before you were born I owned a radio ...made in Japan.
Global economy, cheap labor abroad and the power brokers and the elected officials without vision or concern widened this road to fit everyone. You cant escape it. Something you own or have purchased has this mark on it.
There are some changes that have silver lining. PVC for waste, whether you agree or not, made building more affordible for more people. Its life for a southern home is fine and many Northern ones. You have to have an alternative for copper. For one reason if China decides to buy up all the copper and the price soars what will the people in America do with inordinate price increases. Thats more unfair than the possibility of a product not living up to expectations after 10 years.
You have to think through the real options in a bigger picture. Pex is not as big a demon as you fear. There are things to be concerned about though. There are changes pulling it all down that make pex seem like jay walking at 3a.m.
 

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Warranty

Last year I was deposed as a witness in the litigation of CPVC failure. The Bottom line was CPVC manufacture pointed the finger at the plumbing contractor for a faulty installation. The contractor did not follow the 14 page installation manual .

I'm sure any time the damages are exceedingly high the manufactures would bring in the big gun attorney's to protect the integrity of their product. Billions are at stake !

Most contractors don't have deep enough pockets to end up in court.

With that said ethics are crucial to longterm success.

john
johncraigplumbing.com
 

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Very nice post stillaround.:thumbsup:

To tell you the truth after many years in this business I started getting bored and unmotivated (before pex), I didn't want to change from copper either, I Liked the way I was doing things and I thought it was the only way.

One day I took notice as to how many rolls of pex were being loaded into trucks at the supply house and thought what was I missing here? These guys were motivated and happy campers, not to mention very busy.

That day changed me. I started taking continuing education classes, joined the PHCC, scheduled my certification class for wirsbo. I've never looked back since then.

I stay on top of new products and do a lot of research which also brought me to these message boards. Instead of hating every new product or change I now research it, embrace it and become an expert on it. That doesn't mean I'll like every new product that comes out but I'm not going to turn my head in disgust either.:thumbup:
 

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I agree with you. And you are more motivated than me to research--I need to study a little more. Id like to zero in on the real item gnawing at these guys. I think theyd be happier being flexible. Most of the arguments seem to lean toward anyone who uses these products has a lack of commitment to quality or the "industry". Thats not the enemy.
 

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I agree with you. And you are more motivated than me to research--I need to study a little more. Id like to zero in on the real item gnawing at these guys. I think theyd be happier being flexible. Most of the arguments seem to lean toward anyone who uses these products has a lack of commitment to quality or the "industry". Thats not the enemy.

Yes, after all this back and forth bickering it does seem to come down to that. It's no longer about the quality, they can't prove anything. It's always wait and see, it could happen, it might happen etc.

They want others to believe as you said it's a lack of commitment to our industry, I agree with you there. I know many plumbers using pex, many very large union shops. They are extremely committed and motivated just as I am to our industry. I don't understand why they would want to make this personal and degrading to our trade. The future is all about change and the wolf criers will soon be a very small percentage in our industry.:)
 

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www.DunbarPlumbing.com
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Discussion Starter #19
Dip Tube Failures applause.gif

CPVC Failures applause.gif

BLU-MAX Failures applause.gif

Polybutylene Failures applause.gif

KITEC Failures applause.gif

ZURN PEX Failures applause.gif


90% of my service calls that come into my office that are underground water services that have failed, PLASTIC applause.gif

Plastic Female Adapters, Banned in all 50 states because they FAIL, along with the now "Brass fused CPVC connectors" that also split and fail over time applause.gif

The internal guide plate holders that eventually wear out causing the cartridge to fail on a Delta Monitor series PLASTIC applause.gif

The 1.5" PVC male adaptor that haphazardly snaps off a sump pump during operation, causing thousands in damage, PLASTIC applause.gif

The plastic ferrules on 1.5" tubular PVC that hardens to stone in a short few years due to constant temperature variances, allowing for leaking applause.gif

Those plastic floor drain covers that always break, turn yellow, crack applause.gif


Those plastic PEX risers to toilets, faucets that become super brittle over time at the stress points where it was tightened down by the supply nut or compression ferrule applause.gif

Those plastic balls on pop-up assemblies that always crack over time and the rod becomes separated from the pivot ball applause.gif

The plastic drains on water heaters applause.gif

The plastic parts I'm constantly taking to the supply house, asking to repair applause.gif

The plastic water piping I have to tear out in homes because of countless leaks or failures applause.gif

The water heater replacements that bring on conditions in respect to being able to "just" replace a water heater without replacing the entire water supply system because of terrible warping of the pipe applause.gif

The fact that any plastic, the physical makeup of that product eventually gets hard and brittle, by default applause.gif

That when you disturb that hard and brittle pipe, it breaks applause.gif

That "others" think about the now, and not the later applause.gif

That I have tons more of these examples of plastic products costing thousands applause.gif

That I'm abusing this smilie applause.gif


There is a degree of expectation of a product of how long it should last. If it holds up for a reasonable time...I'm fine with it.

But when it starts failing way before a "expected and usual" time, I have problems with it...and that is when people become victims.

I don't ever want to create victims as a plumber. Some of us do. I'm not one of them.

I set my boundaries and I've never put my customer in a position to double spend or have them spend twice, giving my competition a reason to bash me.

As I repeat, you all do things your way, I'll do things my way...but remember: >>> YOU are accountable for the products you install.

The internet gives us the ability now to instantly research back and find/locate those who put a product in and toted it as gold. Those are the ones that have the most to worry about, given the internet has such a depth to find those who installed products that later failed.

That's why I "stay the course"...because the above is just a mere sample of what to expect of the same as the product has limitations.

Job security? Of course, but show me a plastic hose bibb faucet, an all plastic shower valve or faucet, a plastic pressure reducing valve or a plastic shutoff valve that doesn't freeze shut in 4 years.

Do you know what sits inside all those equations? Brass and Copper. Two products that will never disappear from the plumbing system because they provide so much reliability for the standard.

Roast "holding urine all the way to the end" Duck
 

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Dip Tube Failures View attachment 1900

CPVC Failures View attachment 1900

BLU-MAX Failures View attachment 1900

Polybutylene Failures View attachment 1900

KITEC Failures View attachment 1900

ZURN PEX Failures View attachment 1900


90% of my service calls that come into my office that are underground water services that have failed, PLASTIC View attachment 1900

Plastic Female Adapters, Banned in all 50 states because they FAIL, along with the now "Brass fused CPVC connectors" that also split and fail over time View attachment 1900

The internal guide plate holders that eventually wear out causing the cartridge to fail on a Delta Monitor series PLASTIC View attachment 1900

The 1.5" PVC male adaptor that haphazardly snaps off a sump pump during operation, causing thousands in damage, PLASTIC View attachment 1900

The plastic ferrules on 1.5" tubular PVC that hardens to stone in a short few years due to constant temperature variances, allowing for leaking View attachment 1900

Those plastic floor drain covers that always break, turn yellow, crack View attachment 1900


Those plastic PEX risers to toilets, faucets that become super brittle over time at the stress points where it was tightened down by the supply nut or compression ferrule View attachment 1900

Those plastic balls on pop-up assemblies that always crack over time and the rod becomes separated from the pivot ball View attachment 1900

The plastic drains on water heaters View attachment 1900

The plastic parts I'm constantly taking to the supply house, asking to repair View attachment 1900

The plastic water piping I have to tear out in homes because of countless leaks or failures View attachment 1900

The water heater replacements that bring on conditions in respect to being able to "just" replace a water heater without replacing the entire water supply system because of terrible warping of the pipe View attachment 1900

The fact that any plastic, the physical makeup of that product eventually gets hard and brittle, by default View attachment 1900

That when you disturb that hard and brittle pipe, it breaks View attachment 1900

That "others" think about the now, and not the later View attachment 1900

That I have tons more of these examples of plastic products costing thousands View attachment 1900

That I'm abusing this smilie View attachment 1900


There is a degree of expectation of a product of how long it should last. If it holds up for a reasonable time...I'm fine with it.

But when it starts failing way before a "expected and usual" time, I have problems with it...and that is when people become victims.

I don't ever want to create victims as a plumber. Some of us do. I'm not one of them.

I set my boundaries and I've never put my customer in a position to double spend or have them spend twice, giving my competition a reason to bash me.

As I repeat, you all do things your way, I'll do things my way...but remember: >>> YOU are accountable for the products you install.

The internet gives us the ability now to instantly research back and find/locate those who put a product in and toted it as gold. Those are the ones that have the most to worry about, given the internet has such a depth to find those who installed products that later failed.

That's why I "stay the course"...because the above is just a mere sample of what to expect of the same as the product has limitations.

Job security? Of course, but show me a plastic hose bibb faucet, an all plastic shower valve or faucet, a plastic pressure reducing valve or a plastic shutoff valve that doesn't freeze shut in 4 years.

Do you know what sits inside all those equations? Brass and Copper. Two products that will never disappear from the plumbing system because they provide so much reliability for the standard.

Roast "holding urine all the way to the end" Duck

Goodnight!

 
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