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I have pulled a lot of toilets that were leaking and the floor rotten and the wax had a horn.

I don’t understand what the extra plastic horn does when the toilet outlet is 2”-2.5” and the pipe is minimum 3”.

Even if the flange is level with the floor and you put 1” of wax on top of the flange, the horn of the toilet will still be sitting well below the top of the wax.

If the horn of the toilet doesn’t sit tight against the horn of the wax and there is space there, when the toilet flushes there will be splashing. Water doesn’t drop straight out of the bottom, it swirling from the toilet outlet.

I’d rather just have the toilet horn sitting over the top of the 3”-4” pipe with nothing between to interfere.

The wax does the sealing, not an extra horn. And with the toilet horn sitting over a larger opening there’s no need for anything else.

It the flange isn’t proper, I feel like that’s why I’m there, to correct mistakes made by others.

I routinely find toilets leaking around the wax and they do have a horn. Or I find a toilet that’s constantly clogging and I pull it up and the horn is deformed or slipped into the flush path.

I have never had a problem sealing a toilet and the answer was to install a horned wax. Never…….
 

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Horned waxes were invented to keep the flange/pipe joint dry so it doesn't corrode as quickly. This is important with inside caulk and inside solder flanges.

If all you're installing is plastic, and you make sure to seal the ends of coex pipe then yes, a horned wax is rarely better.
 

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Horned waxes were invented to keep the flange/pipe joint dry so it doesn't corrode as quickly. This is important with inside caulk and inside solder flanges.

If all you're installing is plastic, and you make sure to seal the ends of coex pipe then yes, a horned wax is rarely better.
wax seals that joint. in cast iron the oakum seals joint also.

Foamcore pvc wont leak unless its under pressure on the cut end. solid core wont leak even under pressure test.

Solder seals the joint on others.

I assure you its all designed to get wet.


im not buying that. have any reference material to collaborate the suggestion ?
 

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wax seals that joint. in cast iron the oakum seals joint also.

Foamcore pvc wont leak unless its under pressure on the cut end. solid core wont leak even under pressure test.

Solder seals the joint on others.

I assure you its all designed to get wet.


im not buying that. have any reference material to collaborate the suggestion ?
Yes, solder and lead/oakum seal on their own and are fine getting wet. That's not the point. It's not as corrosion proof or smooth as the rest of the pipe and can hold a piece of schit or stay wet with toilet bowl cleaner. It will corrode less if you use a horned wax.

I don't know how much copper or leaded cast iron you see but I see it all the time. I am just telling you my experience and why we use horned waxes when we do. Our way has worked for around a century, you do what you want.
 
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.........im not buying that. have any reference material to collaborate the suggestion ?
There's a lot of things we do in this trade that aren't written down anywhere, at least not anymore.
 

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There weren't always toilet flanges either. Used to be that you just stubbed up a pipe and cut it flush with the floor. The toilet was screwed directly into the wood/cement. I have had to re-set toilets in this arrangement. Horned wax gaskets have been around a long time and I'm not the only plumber who thinks they are worth using occasionally.

In 1945 William Harvey standardised and popularised the wax toilet seal. In 1956 Paul Thies was granted a patent for an improvement on the wax seal. He called this a "Bowl Sleeve Gasket". It is a wax ring with a polyethylene sleeve, the "modern" horned wax gasket.

"....William Harvey is the exclusive licensee for the United States of the Thies patent ...."


"Harvey also had experience as a journeyman and master plumber, and was in the plumbing contracting business in Omaha, Nebraska prior to 1945, at which time he pioneered in the development and sale of wax ring sealing gaskets for toilet bowls."




"With the parts arranged and assembled in this manner a water and gas tight seal is provided and with the ring positioned upon the flange of the lead nipple or ferrule and the toilet bowl set upon the ring the ring is in sealing engagement with both the flange and lower surface of the bowl whereby either water or gas will not leak through the joint, and with the skirt extended downwardly into the ferrule it will provide a guide carrying the fluids downwardly beyond the connection between the toilet bowl and fitting of the soil pipe below. The upper end of the ferrule should be positioned so that when the toilet bowl is adjusted to the permanent position the gasket will be compressed with both surfaces in positive contact with the adjoining parts.

By this means a sealed joint is provided that will remain sealed indefinitely."


 

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Yeah, I’m not buying that horned wax rings are to prevent the wear of the joint between the flange and the pipe.

Modern Horned wax showed up on Bob villas crap show and hardware store shelves as a quick fix for a low flange. Plumbers set modern toilets with putty, then wax came along. Then the horned wax showed up on hardware stores.

But you guys are welcome to believe that horn it’s to keep that joint dry if you want. I’ll continue to believe it’s an attempt to correct a low flange or a misguided attempt to seal a toilet to the flange.

They cause problems. I’ve seen the problems first hand.
 

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There weren't always toilet flanges either. Used to be that you just stubbed up a pipe and cut it flush with the floor. The toilet was screwed directly into the wood/cement. I have had to re-set toilets in this arrangement. Horned wax gaskets have been around a long time and I'm not the only plumber who thinks they are worth using occasionally.

In 1945 William Harvey standardised and popularised the wax toilet seal. In 1956 Paul Thies was granted a patent for an improvement on the wax seal. He called this a "Bowl Sleeve Gasket". It is a wax ring with a polyethylene sleeve, the "modern" horned wax gasket.

"....William Harvey is the exclusive licensee for the United States of the Thies patent ...."

"Harvey also had experience as a journeyman and master plumber, and was in the plumbing contracting business in Omaha, Nebraska prior to 1945, at which time he pioneered in the development and sale of wax ring sealing gaskets for toilet bowls."



"With the parts arranged and assembled in this manner a water and gas tight seal is provided and with the ring positioned upon the flange of the lead nipple or ferrule and the toilet bowl set upon the ring the ring is in sealing engagement with both the flange and lower surface of the bowl whereby either water or gas will not leak through the joint, and with the skirt extended downwardly into the ferrule it will provide a guide carrying the fluids downwardly beyond the connection between the toilet bowl and fitting of the soil pipe below. The upper end of the ferrule should be positioned so that when the toilet bowl is adjusted to the permanent position the gasket will be compressed with both surfaces in positive contact with the adjoining parts.

By this means a sealed joint is provided that will remain sealed indefinitely."


This is much different than the wax seals with horns sold today.

And I will say that putty was and is a better method for setting bowls. It’s lasts forever.
I pulled one set in 1952 a couple weeks ago to replace the toilet. Still packed full of putty on a cast iron flange that looked new when I chiseled the putty off it.
 

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This is much different than the wax seals with horns sold today.

And I will say that putty was and is a better method for setting bowls. It’s lasts forever.
I pulled one set in 1952 a couple weeks ago to replace the toilet. Still packed full of putty on a cast iron flange that looked new when I chiseled the putty off it.
Did you even look at the picture? It's near identical! They even started right off the bat using polyethylene plastic for the horn as they do today.

You asked me for reference material, I didn't think it existed but then I thought about the patent. Lo and behold it's all laid out to bare in the patent and a lawsuit filing!

Also, not all putty is created equal. I've pulled toilets set in putty that was good and some where the putty was almost gone and what was left was dust.
 

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Did you even look at the picture? It's near identical! They even started right off the bat using polyethylene plastic for the horn as they do today.

You asked me for reference material, I didn't think it existed but then I thought about the patent. Lo and behold it's all laid out to bare in the patent and a lawsuit filing!

Also, not all putty is created equal. I've pulled toilets set in putty that was good and some where the putty was almost gone and what was left was dust.
I've never found one in the wild. My 83 yr old father never has seen one in person or sold at a supply house. He was in his prime in the early 60'.

And just because theres a patent doesnt mean it works.

Infact, Ive told you why they dont work. They slip out of position and can obstruct the outlet of the toilet. They can also get knocked out of the wax by a bowl auger.
 

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Well since you and your father have never seen one they must not exist.
 

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Well since you and your father have never seen one they must not exist.
They may exist but theyre not needed. And they can cause problems thats why everyone doesnt use them.

I routinely throw them away. Most of the time the homeowner had tile installed and the tileman set the toilet. I dont even think they sell a horned wax at our regular supply house.

Check with southern Pipe @ROCKSTARPLUMBER
 

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The box also tells you to put the wax on the toilet.

I've never met a plumber that puts his wax on the bowl.

Im sure hes out there, ready to argue that the box says to do it. 🤭
That's just to mess with the diy.
 

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wax seals that joint. in cast iron the oakum seals joint also.

Foamcore pvc wont leak unless its under pressure on the cut end. solid core wont leak even under pressure test.

Solder seals the joint on others.

I assure you its all designed to get wet.


im not buying that. have any reference material to collaborate the suggestion ?
Horned wax rings should be outlawed,I have no use for them
 
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