Plumbing Zone - Professional Plumbers Forum banner

1 - 12 of 12 Posts

·
Always Something
Joined
·
1,369 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Anyone have experience with this? Tankless warranty and installation requirements are changing (often) and this is now more important than ever that I be able to do on the spot testing. The little dip sticks suck, and the powder is even worse...Maybe like a pool man's kit or something?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
6,437 Posts
Anyone have experience with this? Tankless warranty and installation requirements are changing (often) and this is now more important than ever that I be able to do on the spot testing. The little dip sticks suck, and the powder is even worse...Maybe like a pool man's kit or something?
pool and spa place is your best bet for a quality kit...what do the tankless folks say about how to test the water
 

·
Always Something
Joined
·
1,369 Posts
Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Buncha pot heads!!
The short version is really hard water is eating the K in the exchangers and causing leaks. They have now set paramaters on the PPM levels per gallon. If you are found to be out of line they (starting this month) will not warranty the failure. I heard Takagi is either doing the same or getting to that point. It will follow suite because all the exchangers are of basically the same design. The biggest worry was that calcium carbonate would clog up the exchangers but I am not seeing much of that.....flow sensors get gummed up and cause improper readings for demand that don't agree with temp outputs readings, therefore a disagreement will ensue leading to an error code flashed. Bypas servos are being affected in that that can become slower to react therefor demand changes requested are sluggish to maintain constant temps. I am seeing this on older units date codes of 2005-2006. 07 there were alot of changes made as was 08. Another reason to sell softeners and a maintenance service. Anyhow, I am getting more and more calls from folks on well with really hard water and it's eating up their units however a few hours with the whisperer!! and they are back to normal.

Gotta link on the electronic testers? Just a google search or something?


Ken, next cam video you do, get some Twilight Zone music for it! That would be funny.....That or bob Marley.....(dude, call Dominoes)

 

·
Always Something
Joined
·
1,369 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
pool and spa place is your best bet for a quality kit...what do the tankless folks say about how to test the water

Send them a sample and they will do it!

Yeah right....

I know they are not perfect (God knows, I have been through it) but they do have a few very smart guys and they are comming around. Slowly
 

·
Illinois Licensed Plumber
Joined
·
4,253 Posts
Just took the Third class at Noritz. They are cracking down on hardness of the water. They offer a product called ScaleSheild that they recommend for moderate hardness. But for extreme cases they want a softener installed. Here is a Q&A from their website. Of course they never did bring up what they recommend to test the hardness with.

Q:Do I need to install a water softener for my tankless unit?A:No. It is not required to install a water softener, but if you do live in an area that has very hard water it will eventually harm the performance of your tankless water heater. Some things you can do is to add a water treatment system such as our ScaleShield which prevents scale from forming inside the heater's copper piping, a whole-house water softener system, or do a routine flush maintenance (frequency depends on your water hardness level).

It is recommended to have your installer test your water hardness or contact your city's water department for the water test report. Water hardness levels in excess of 12 grains per gallon entering the heater will significantly affect its performance and void your warranty.
 

·
Always Something
Joined
·
1,369 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Sounds right. Did Eric do the class?

I don't like the scale shield system. The media membrane has a fairly short life span to it and it's expensive for what it is. It will cost more to do a softener, but in the long run it will work out better to do a softener. It's a quick fix, not a real solution. Plus they will get the benefits of a softener. However if your area does not allow them (salt or potassium) I guess it is an option.

So mr. Level III did you have fun taking apart your heater and putting it back together with only a Phillips? Did they give you pizza or sandwiches?

Did they let you guys readjust tha manifold pressures?
I was at one not too long ago and I made the guy giving the class let one of the students readjust it. He screwed it up...it was fun to watch!

You sign up for a service contractor?





Just took the Third class at Noritz. They are cracking down on hardness of the water. They offer a product called ScaleSheild that they recommend for moderate hardness. But for extreme cases they want a softener installed. Here is a Q&A from their website. Of course they never did bring up what they recommend to test the hardness with.

Q:Do I need to install a water softener for my tankless unit?A:No. It is not required to install a water softener, but if you do live in an area that has very hard water it will eventually harm the performance of your tankless water heater. Some things you can do is to add a water treatment system such as our ScaleShield which prevents scale from forming inside the heater's copper piping, a whole-house water softener system, or do a routine flush maintenance (frequency depends on your water hardness level).

It is recommended to have your installer test your water hardness or contact your city's water department for the water test report. Water hardness levels in excess of 12 grains per gallon entering the heater will significantly affect its performance and void your warranty.
 

·
Illinois Licensed Plumber
Joined
·
4,253 Posts
Sounds right. Did Eric do the class?
Adam gave the class.

I don't like the scale shield system. The media membrane has a fairly short life span to it and it's expensive for what it is. It will cost more to do a softener, but in the long run it will work out better to do a softener. It's a quick fix, not a real solution. Plus they will get the benefits of a softener. However if your area does not allow them (salt or potassium) I guess it is an option.
Softeners are allowed here. Adam did say that the media will clog fairly quickly on the ScaleSheild if the water is to hard.

So mr. Level III did you have fun taking apart your heater and putting it back together with only a Phillips? Did they give you pizza or sandwiches?
I was amazed how easy it was to take apart. I did get the pipe clamps a little mixed up at first, but quickly figured out my mistake. They brought in pizza.


Did they let you guys readjust tha manifold pressures?
I was at one not too long ago and I made the guy giving the class let one of the students readjust it. He screwed it up...it was fun to watch!
No we did not get to adjust the manifold pressure. But he did go into it in great detail. He did explain after making the adjustment you need to watch the pressure for a few extra seconds cause it takes a second to catch up to the changes you made.

You sign up for a service contractor?
Sure did. They may not pay much, but to me it is worth it.
 

·
Always Something
Joined
·
1,369 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Here's why you sign up for it....at least 75% of the calls you go out on will not be warranty related. Of those calls I would guestimate maybe half to 3/4 will need new gas lines installed. Flushing the units when there are no isolation valves on there, sell them the kit and so on.....Make sure you stock the internal GFCI's and transformers. I forget our pricing....like 25 for both or something. This is for power surges that smoke the units....easy money. Every now and than there will be a ligit repair and they pay up to 120 in labor and will ship you out the parts if you don't stock them but it means you have to make another trip. The power rated installer on the site will change to the icon for 3 classes completed. It really does help in getting people to call you. I get about 2 to 4 calls / leeds a week and I am now charging 85 to view a house. It doesn't keep me overly busy, but ya know...every little bit helps. Hay, wanna by my manometer? EC 120 had it for about....2 years. I want the bigger faster better onwe as I am starting to get into some crazy stuff and need some more features. Adam is a cool guy. He helped me out a while ago on a 6.9 that couldn't maintain low flow constant temps. We improved the problem but never fixed it. It wasn't until recently when I was driving around did I realize exactly how to fix it. My best moments come in the truck sometimes!

Good Luck with it
 
1 - 12 of 12 Posts
Top