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Discussion Starter #1
What do you think?

I know that the non-union shops are way starting to out weight the union shops.

Do you think that there should be more or less unions shops?

Or should there be no plumbing union?

Seems like the unions guys work a lot less then non union shops as well.

I mean half of my plumbing career was walking past picket lines.......I thought it was always better to just work rather then stand with a sign...

Thoughts?
 

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Where do the large shops that do large projects like new high rises turn to for finding workers? Do you expect them to take on the expense of providing training and benefits to their employees? Or are you suggesting that those employees should have to provide their own benefits if they want something like health insurance? Perhaps you think that they should all become subcontractors to save the employer the hassle of deducting taxes?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Where do the large shops that do large projects like new high rises turn to for finding workers? Do you expect them to take on the expense of providing training and benefits to their employees? Or are you suggesting that those employees should have to provide their own benefits if they want something like health insurance? Perhaps you think that they should all become subcontractors to save the employer the hassle of deducting taxes?

Are you saying that non union shops don't do what you listed?

That's just ludicrist, Come on....

So by the above statement your saying that non union shops do not only have the man power , but they don't pay taxes or provide health care?

Hmm.....I worked for all non union shops and always had health care, U just had to ask my boss.

We also had a 120+ man shop.......

And I think my boss also paid his taxes..

So what point are you trying to make?

Maybe I am missing something here?

I mean lets look at it this way.

Let's say "westcoastplumber" and "rockstar"

They are both non union licensed plumbers and provide for there family?

How would be a UNION shop benefit them?

Thats my question to you...

So if westcoast and rockstar and whoever else joined the union they would live better?

OK - SO why isn't everyone in the union?
 

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It's tempting. But I don't think I'll take the bait on this one. :gunsmilie:
 

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Are you saying that non union shops don't do what you listed?

That's just ludicrist, Come on....

So by the above statement your saying that non union shops do not only have the man power , but they don't pay taxes or provide health care?

Hmm.....I worked for all non union shops and always had health care, U just had to ask my boss.

We also had a 120+ man shop.......

And I think my boss also paid his taxes..

So what point are you trying to make?

Maybe I am missing something here?

I mean lets look at it this way.

Let's say "westcoastplumber" and "rockstar"

They are both non union licensed plumbers and provide for there family?

How would be a UNION shop benefit them?

Thats my question to you...

So if westcoast and rockstar and whoever else joined the union they would live better?

OK - SO why isn't everyone in the union?
You're comparing one man shops to shops that employ 600+ plumbers?

I'm done talking to you, you can't even begin to grasp my point.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
You're comparing one man shops to shops that employ 600+ plumbers?

I'm done talking to you, you can't even begin to grasp my point.
I am asking how WHY a non union shop Vs a union shop is better or the other way around,

YOUR going off topic with the number of men a shop can employ, WHO CARES

HERE IS THE QUESTION

WHY OR HOW, can a non union shop benefit from becoming a union shop?
 

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I am asking how WHY a non union shop Vs a union shop is better or the other way around,

YOUR going off topic with the number of men a shop can employ, WHO CARES

HERE IS THE QUESTION

WHY OR HOW, can a non union shop benefit from becoming a union shop?
The Plumbing Unions have the highest trained and educated plumbers there are. There is a big difference between a guy working in the trenches every day and a guy working in the trenches every day and then heading to school after work to learn the technical side of things. If you eliminate the Unions who is going to teach the skills the Unions are teaching now?

Mark
 

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non union teachers?
The Union Halls have the facilities and the Instructors to teach plumbing. It's not that there are not non-Union schools and teachers but there is no where near the number needed. If you ever get a chance, stop by the multi-million dollar facility the Las Vegas Pipe Fitters Union built and tell me what non-Union school could even come close at what they have at that facility.

Mark
 

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non union teachers?
That's fine if you get the licensing body to accredit the schools they teach in and the procedures used, not as easy as may think.

Where is your labor pool? Here is a small example from my background, I used to run new high-rise work, in Monday's job meeting we are told that production has to ramped up to finish tower one so that financing can be secured to start tower two, so now I need twenty five trained journeymen plumbers by the end of the week to acheive this, if not for the union where do you get them? Are you proposing that guys with skills are going to sit at home waiting for shops to need help with no benefits for the time they are sitting?
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Hey listen,

I am not against unions in any way, and now I do see some valid points,

The best way to learn is to debate :)...pleasantly that is :)
 

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Don't forget about retirement. The unions have a great retirement plan.
 

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Hey listen,

I am not against unions in any way, and now I do see some valid points,

The best way to learn is to debate :)...pleasantly that is :)
The union isn't the best alternative for everyone, most one man shops would be doing themselves a disservice by going union, as they would not profit from the union's strengths, which is why I lost patience with the discussion when you brought up the examples of Rockstar and Robert, which is an example that would not benefit from being union unless they were working in an area like Chicago.
 

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The union isn't the best alternative for everyone, most one man shops would be doing themselves a disservice by going union, as they would not profit from the union's strengths, which is why I lost patience with the discussion when you brought up the examples of Rockstar and Robert, which is an example that would not benefit from being union unless they were working in an area like Chicago.
A one man shop can become a union and pay the monthly dues for himself. Health insurance (top notch plan), retirement, vacation savings, the ability to have apprentices trained, government contracts closed to non-union, etc, and the general labor pool of licensed plumbers.

Trust me on this, guys, no matter how small, the union has much to offer.
 

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A one man shop can become a union and pay the monthly dues for himself. Health insurance (top notch plan), retirement, vacation savings, the ability to have apprentices trained, government contracts closed to non-union, etc, and the general labor pool of licensed plumbers.

Trust me on this, guys, no matter how small, the union has much to offer.
I'm not saying they can't, my point was if they intend to remain a one man shop till they retire, they can structure things to suit them better than what the union is offering for the same net cost. I know a lot of guys that are one man shops, and a couple that are two brothers working together, some are union, some choose to go their own way.
 

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I'm not saying they can't, my point was if they intend to remain a one man shop till they retire, they can structure things to suit them better than what the union is offering for the same net cost. I know a lot of guys that are one man shops, and a couple that are two brothers working together, some are union, some choose to go their own way.
Not the same net cost when compared line to line with other packages.

Some of the finer points:

The union doesn't arbitrarily changes rates.
Most one man shops never think about retirement, vacation savings, etc.
The monthly dues for a one man shop turns into a no-brainer. The whole benefit package is taken care of by the union office.
You can't be dropped from the insurance program.
The retirement is the strongest in the nation.
 

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I'll let some of the one man shows that are members here respond, I think you might be wrong, these guys know what suits them best.
 

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I guess I'll chime in. I am a one-man union shop. This allows me to bid large jobs due to almost unlimited man-power. Then when things get slow they are sent back to the hall.

2 of my large clients have international agreements with the labor unions to use their labor exclusively. If I wasn't union I would not be qualified to bid 90% of the jobs I go after. These are very profitable jobs.

Most of the time when I am contacted for a bid the first question asked is am I union.

I can't comment on the benefits as I don't elect to pay them. I would rather invest my own money and buy my own health insurance. If owners take the health insurance they are required to pay on 40 hours per week every week even if they only work 2 hours that week.
 
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