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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Here are some pictures of a Mechanical room that I'm building right now for the greenest buildling in Canada right now which should attain Leed platinum rating.

The pipe we are using is Fusiotherm (also called Aquatherm) which is a German Polypropolene (PP-R). This pipe is fused using irons and the result is the pipe and fitting become one after the process is performed which leads to extremely long service life. In fact they have charts in the book that list how many days per year you can run it at xx temperature at xx pressure and the pressures/temperatures we are running are generally no where near those listed for the 40+ year service life it is rated for in the charts in the book.

There are essentially 3 pipes we are using - The Blue & Green Pipe (Climatherm) is for heating, cooling & return mains and rated for pretty much everything except potable water applications (pools, heating, cooling, some process piping, etc.). These are the mains which go to radiant boxes in every suite and are mixed or diverted accordingly as the call for heating or cooling is called for (radiant floor heating and cooling). The Green pipe with blue stripe (SDR 11) is Fusiotherm and is rated for cold water potable only for the most part and the Green Pipe with the Green pipe (SDR 7.4) which is thicker is for the domestic hot water and hot water recirc mains. This pipe can handle fairly high water movement and the system is designed at 8 feet per second but we are told they will push for 10+ feet per second service/standards which could really help reduce pipe sizes on some jobs in the future. The fittings we use are universal so they can be fused onto any of the 3 pipes shown.

The system we are installing has 2 - 10 ton Geothermal Heat Pumps which will do the bulk of the heating, supplemented by the 2- IBC VFC 45-225 Boilers (45,000 to 225,000 Modulating Condensing Natural Gas Boilers - Made in Vancouver) in times of extreme demand on really cold days, and the heat pumps are responsible for the radiant cooling as well in the Summer. We have evaculated tubes going on the roof which will heat up 3 - 120 gallon buffer tanks worth of domestic potable water before going into 2 - 120 Gallon Indirect fired hot water tanks. In times of extreme demand when the Solar can't supply enough domestic hot water the boilers will supplement it with each boiler heating one of the indirect fired hot water tanks. There is also a fan coil in the room which the Boiler on the right will be heating to heat the storage area outside the Mechanical room.

Right now the system is is set up for temporary heat for the buildling with one of the Boilers going as you can see, that is why it's a bit messy. One of these boilers has the balls to heat the entire 24 unit building if needed and that's what we have set up to keep the drywallers and painters happy in the mean time while we build the rest of the Mech room.

There is also a large rainwater tank in the parkade which we divert well water previously circulated through the heat pumps and rain water into which will serve all the toilets in the buildling as well as the laundry and some irrigation. This will have a domestic potable make up in times of high demand but we anticipate the building not ever needing it.

Note below - the 1st picture is a fused joint on 25 MM SDR 11 Fusiotherm pipe fused into a 90 (25 MM = 3/4" equivilent but with better cross sections than Copper.)

The second picture below is that 90 but cut midway through the joint. Note that the pipe and fitting have been permanently fused to the point that you can virtually not even see a seem.

The third picture is a 50 MM climatherm pipe that we have drilled a hole in using the Fusiotherm special saddle bit and we are preparing to install a 1/2" FIP saddle to fuse on it.

The 4th picture is of the 2 IBC Boilers on the wall. The left one is running temporary heat as you can see by the lit up digital display. It's a primary secondary system with DHW secondary and Radiant injection secondary to supplement the heat pump but in this case it's rigged for temporary heat as you can probably figure out. We use all Wilo Pumps which are about as good as it gets for quality.

The 5th picture shows the right boiler getting built as you can see.

Note the Boilers are Direct Vent with CPVC 636 Flue gas venting and PVC System 15 for the intake.

Note the black 2" Black High Density Poly Ethylene Pipe coming in behind the left boilers loops. This will be extended to the 2 Heat Pumps when they get installed.
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
Here are 5 more pictures

The 1st - the 3 different types of pipe we use - Lowest is the Climatherm which we use for radiant heating/cooling/return mains. The middle Green with Blue stripe (SDR 11) is for Cold Potable water, the top the Green with green stripe (SDR 7.4) we use for Domestic hot and recirc mains.

The second picture is a side profile of the pipes. They are pretty high density pipes too.

The third pipe is a finished saddle installed on the pipe.

The 4th and 5th pics show the main circulator pumps for the radiant heating mains which are 2 large Wilo Stratos pumps. These are big heavy bad boys but they're not even the biggest pumps in the mech room - we have 2 bigger Wilo stratos' which we will be using for the radiant cooling mains (you need to move a hell of a lot more water to do radiant cooling). These pumps are about as good as it gets if you want a truely variable speed circulator pump for radiant heating or cooling. They can detect when actuators open and thus negate the need for a differential bypass valve as you can't really dead head them.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Here are 3 more pictures.

The 1st picture is of the small Iron we use (we have a small and a large Iron). This small Iron is designed to fuse 16 MM (3/8's) up to 63 MM (2") and everything in between. Right now it has 50 MM heads (1 1/2" equivilent) as well as the saddle head to fuse 1/2"/20 MM and 3/4"/25 MM saddles onto 50 MM pipe as you can see.

The second shot is of me fusing a small piece of pipe and a 90 together on the tool.

The third shot is putting the fitting and pipe together after the allotted fusion time has been reached on the iron.

To actually do this stuff you have to totally approach it differently than what you're used to doing with Copper or PVC or other types of pipe. You really have to slow down, and think about every fusion. You have much less room for error with this stuff and you really have to plan out how you are going to attack every joint and fusion with some pre-fab mixed in to make things easier. As a result this stuff REALLY puts the T back in Tradesmen. Not just anyone can do it well. It's taken me a lot of time to adjust and I'm still adjusting and getting used to doing it. This stuff was made by Germans for those who demand exceptionally reliable, durable, long lasting installations If you do it right it will easily outlast the building. And this is the crux of being environmentally responsible in my opinion. This pipe is the only pipe that is approved by green peace. It is very recycable and pure - it contains NO metals unlike PVC and CPVC. It is what I would put in my house if it needed a repipe.
 

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Always Something
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Wow...that is pretty cool. You may have just changed my opinions about Canadians!!Kidding. That is great workmanship, it's obvious you guys have it going on....can't wait to see it on TV. Is it me, or is this just like PE fusion? I was sorta daydreaming when I read about the pipe material....how thick is a 1" pipe and a 1 1/2"? Is it rated in Schedule? Really great work...Please keep taking pics....I'd love to see it the rest of the way through.
 

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You had me going until you mentioned that quasi-terrorist group of thugs known as greenpeace.

But yeah, nice stuff.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
A guy on our geo crew and I were having a little discussion the other day about the differences between fusing PP-R and HDPE (which is what they use in Geo fields - HIgh Density Poly Ethylene for those who don't know).

A few key differences

1) He uses a cold ring on the HDPE where as the Fusiotherm specs just use a depth gauge and put some marks with a permanent marker.

2) He likes to chamfer the HDPE which apparently helps rollout but we don't need to do that on the PP-R.

3) If I'm not mistaken, the HDPE has to be absolutely hospital clean but the PP-R just has to be clean to the eye although cleaning it hospital clean ain't gonna hurt it.

Although I am curious what it would be like to chamfer the PP-R pipe wih his chamfering tool and use a cold ring to help better square up some of the fittings as if you don't pay attention you can easily set a fitting cockeyed a bit so you really have to have an eye for it and have a few tricks up your sleeve to help line things up and all that.

As far as the process for fusion, we have to have one of the Fusiotherm reps come in and they do a half day training course with you and show you the system and some of the tools. You have to be certified to use this pipe by them. The PP-R pipe itself, if I'm not mistaken, has a 50 year 6.5 Mllion Euro insurance policy as long as you conduct the warranty testing procedure that Fusiotherm provides you with and submit it back to them. It's a bit involved and takes more time then testing your average Copper, PVC, or Pex water line but it's probably one of the best warranties, err. insurance policies in the business.

To cut the pipe I use my Ridgid 153 Quick acting cutters with a plastic cutting wheel. This works for the SDR 11 and climatherm pipes up to 90 MM (3") and the SDR 7.4 pipe up to 63 MM (2"). You can also use a chop saw with just a conventional wood blade. The key is you want to have a nice square edge on the pipe. Then you use the depth gauge and put some marks on the pipe for depth measurement. I prefer to bottom the fitting out on the iron first and then insert the pipe onto the iron. Once you bottom both fitting and pipe out on the iron you start counting the required fusing time, pull it out of the iron and fuse the pipe and fitting together immediately. If you are in a tight place, one trick the instructor/rep told us was you can double heat the fitting and then heat the pipe up to regular time seperately. This is why I prefer to put the fitting on first, and then put the pipe on second and then start counting, because if you put the pipe on too long it tends to cause more rollout inside the pipe which can restrict flow - another example of where this stuff puts the T back in Tradesman.

AS for the pipe itself, it has a larger cross section than Copper. I took a look at the cross section of 20 MM (1/2" equiv) SDR 7.4 which is the thick walled stuff compared to 1/2" type L Copper and the SDR 7.4 has a about a 1/16" more cross section. When you consider that the SDR 11 and climatherm have less pipe wall this means as good or better flow rates than copper. I was told by a rep that this stuff can handle up to around something like 32 feet per second flow rates, but a safe maximum is 16 feet per second because after that theres flow noise. But it's only approved right now for about 8 I believe but they're going for more which I mentioned above.

Also, the metric sizing of this pipe does not add up to conventional mm's to inches conversions. Here is the equivilence below

16 MM = 3/8"
20 MM = 1/2"
25 MM = 3/4"
32 MM = 1"
40 MM = 1 1/4"
50 MM = 1 1/2"
63 MM = 2"
75 MM = 2 1/2"
90 MM = 3"
110 MM = 3 1/2"
125 MM = 4"

When you put your tape measure accross the full diameter of one of those pipes, those are the measurements you will receive for OD. So 50 MM pipe is 50 MM or 2" OD although it is 1 1/2" equivilent to Copper/Steel/PVC, etc.
 

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clean work. I bet that pipe will outlast us all if properly installed.......now what will our children plumbers do??

I can't stand the LEEDS Building BS!! all about money, in one sentance they say it is so important to be LEED certified, protect he earth, the earth needs us, we are all going to die,the earth is going to burn etc, then the other hand they say how hard and expensive it is.

I asked the woment that asked me for a $5,000 downpayment and then $300.00 a month to be a GREEN PLumber, if it is so important to protect the environment...then why the heck does it have to be expensive and hard?

All in all, another money makin schem, guess its good if you get on the train
 

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Found some of the same thing here with the LEEDS system. Makes me want to just open a LEEDS school that I'm sure this new administration will blindly and ignorantly want to finance.

Excuse me. We will finance. Just watch.

J.C.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
The problem with the Leed system is there seems to be a ton of paperwork & bureaucracy BS for the commissioning that all it does is cut down more trees than neccessary. And like you said it seems like anything "green" costs a sh*tload more money when it really doesn't have to.

I think the problem though lays in the attitude of North Americans. I'll give you an example.

One of the plumbers that works for our company is from Germany - him and his wife moved over here. His wife is an architect and so the first house she designed she submitted to her boss as he obviously wanted to get a feel for her quality of work. The first thing he see is 2 x 12 outside walls - he couldn't believe it! But apparently this is the norm where she comes from. Why? Because apparenlty they build their houses like Brick **** houses and load them up with insulation to make them insanely efficient.

We have another guy who is working for us (when I say "for us" I mean working for the same company I work for, I'm not the owner of this company) doing some plumbing & heating who is an engineering student from Switzerland if I"m not mistaken (haven't worked with him yet). If I recall correctly I heard a story about him taking some shots about how poor the efficiency of the Heat Recovery Ventilators are that we install over here (most are about 65-80%) and that those efficiency ratings would never be so poor where he comes from. Mind you the Europeans have seen the increased fuel prices for much longer than we have so they were forced to become efficient. But it's not just efficiency. It's also about this attitude of building, renovating, flipping, building, renovationg, flipping. If we built houses that lastest longer, and we were more content with what we owned instead of being a throw it away and buy type of society, this alone could help the environment. Sure you could argue this doesn't create jobs but I don't think that's neccessarily true. Instead of guys bidding on houses based on the lowest price, whatever it takes to get the minimum code done, you' got guys bidding based on who's going to do the best quality of work so this house lasts and stays in your family for many decades. the problem is this throw it away, disposable attitude. This alone is responsible for green house gas emissions many times over if you think about it.
 

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٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶&#
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That is so true. I've been preaching this for years. The construction industry’s motto is "build it cheap, sell it steep".

We have lost our sense of worth. Our entire country is obsessed with cheap garbage. “Made in America” used to mean something. Half of what we build now is no better than China. In fact, I would say they are starting to eclipse us. We have to get away from this pattern of buying frivolously, using / wasting, and throwing away. It’s a screwed mentality to have and it’s dragging our country and the world down.
 

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That is so true. I've been preaching this for years. The construction industry’s motto is "build it cheap, sell it steep".

We have lost our sense of worth. Our entire country is obsessed with cheap garbage. “Made in America” used to mean something. Half of what we build now is no better than China. In fact, I would say they are starting to eclipse us. We have to get away from this pattern of buying frivolously, using / wasting, and throwing away. It’s a screwed mentality to have and it’s dragging our country and the world down.
#1 STOP using PEX is the right start :)

#2 I agree totally
 

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٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶&#
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Yeah what a croc. $5000 to be able to call your self a green plumber? I went to those classes and some of the instructors didn't know what they where talking about. I think it's just scheme to make money. I remember the instructor teaching the solar DHW class saying "The water is pumped from the storage tank with a circulator and enters the collectors from the top and drains out the bottom." :eek:Seriously, that's what he said. From that point on I had a hard time believeing anything that was taught without researching it for my self.

clean work. I bet that pipe will outlast us all if properly installed.......now what will our children plumbers do??

I can't stand the LEEDS Building BS!! all about money, in one sentance they say it is so important to be LEED certified, protect he earth, the earth needs us, we are all going to die,the earth is going to burn etc, then the other hand they say how hard and expensive it is.

I asked the woment that asked me for a $5,000 downpayment and then $300.00 a month to be a GREEN PLumber, if it is so important to protect the environment...then why the heck does it have to be expensive and hard?

All in all, another money makin schem, guess its good if you get on the train
 

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٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶&#
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What's your beef with pex? If you want to talk "green", PEX is "greener" than copper by far. I can't speak for your part of the world but where I am at PEX has held up just fine. It has out performed copper in every category except when talking about things it just isn't designed for (high heat, high pressure, exposed locations). I've been installing it for over 10 years and I know plumbers in the area that have been doing it far longer with no problems. Do you know something we don't *******?

#1 STOP using PEX is the right start :)

#2 I agree totally
 

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٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶&#
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I wasn't aware of any metals in cpvc or pvc resins. What are they and why are they there?

Here are 3 more pictures.

The 1st picture is of the small Iron we use (we have a small and a large Iron). This small Iron is designed to fuse 16 MM (3/8's) up to 63 MM (2") and everything in between. Right now it has 50 MM heads (1 1/2" equivilent) as well as the saddle head to fuse 1/2"/20 MM and 3/4"/25 MM saddles onto 50 MM pipe as you can see.

The second shot is of me fusing a small piece of pipe and a 90 together on the tool.

The third shot is putting the fitting and pipe together after the allotted fusion time has been reached on the iron.

To actually do this stuff you have to totally approach it differently than what you're used to doing with Copper or PVC or other types of pipe. You really have to slow down, and think about every fusion. You have much less room for error with this stuff and you really have to plan out how you are going to attack every joint and fusion with some pre-fab mixed in to make things easier. As a result this stuff REALLY puts the T back in Tradesmen. Not just anyone can do it well. It's taken me a lot of time to adjust and I'm still adjusting and getting used to doing it. This stuff was made by Germans for those who demand exceptionally reliable, durable, long lasting installations If you do it right it will easily outlast the building. And this is the crux of being environmentally responsible in my opinion. This pipe is the only pipe that is approved by green peace. It is very recycable and pure - it contains NO metals unlike PVC and CPVC. It is what I would put in my house if it needed a repipe.
 
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