Plumbing Zone - Professional Plumbers Forum banner
1 - 20 of 31 Posts

·
www.DunbarPlumbing.com
Joined
·
5,480 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm sure this thread will go the distance in discussion.


As a plumber and drain cleaner, I find myself taking issue with building any piping system that I know I've encountered over time that proved to be horrible from the standpoint of cleaning the drain.


For example,



Double vanity utilizing a cross instead of a cross-wye. A cross wye will make the drain cleaning for that task when both drains foul a simple task.

If it is a cross tee, cable is always going to send across to the opposite dirty arm and now you've got the challenge of either

1. Bending your cable (if not already) and fishing the drain till it drops

2. Using a drop-head bulb auger

3. Other method


I run 1/4" open hook for all smaller drains, bend the cable back at 6" almost at a 45 to drag the inside of the pipe, catch the sweep down on a tee before up.

When it comes to a cross tee, whether it's catching at toilet or vanities, to tell me that there's enough velocity in the fixture it serves to create a siphoning effect I don't buy.


Especially on a vanity application. On a toilet, I've yet to see a documented case exists where a cross wye was used and a toilet was sucked dry, whereby the not one S trap existed but 2.


Prove the hard science that a cross wye is a known culprit in the plumbing system that follows residential, not commercial type settings that the volume of discharged water creates the ability to bring a siphon to a 1' 6" trap arm off a double vanity.


Code is implemented to minimum standard, not maximum, and just stating "well it's code, therefore it's wrong" doesn't cut it.


Another example where the code states and what is otherwise rubbish:


"Inlet side of the trap will be the only slip joint allowable in the DWV system."

^^^^

That was designed for testing reasons of the DWV system and that's it. That's why that code is implemented.


But what about tub drain overflows, Gerbers? Slip joint on overflow.


KY has a rule on new construction whereby you must glue the trap arms in. This makes it difficult for a drain cleaner from the start, damaging the ferruled edge instantly on the first turn into the piping. It also becomes a dangerous task when years have went by and you're cabling a drain with that length of trap arm being shook violently while drain cleaning, praying the brittle PVC doesn't snap off back at the tee from where all those years of hot water went down that sink from normal use, cooking water like hot water off the stove or the constant dishwasher cycles pushing 120 degree water through the drains.

As mentioned,

When you have to address the plumbing in a fouled mode, even though the system was designed to be nonfouling, I take issue to designs that make it very difficult to drain clean.


If that is the case, then maybe cleanout access should be incorporated in designs where this the case. I wouldn't expect to hold my breath on this notion, and just about every single cleanout would be covered up most times.


Like in California,

Constantly I hear about plumbers/drain cleaners accessing rooftops to clear drains due to no access to cleanouts, or they simply do not exist on the DWV systems.

That proves without a doubt that the people who run the show, enforce the codes do not partake in the care and maintenance of the plumbing system but only the initial building of the design.

A rant indeed, but many times I've seen where steps in the original design makes the maintenance of plumbing systems far easier for the down the road mentality. These people in the beginning stages of the design should put more thought into it, and not knock drain cleaners that redesign or remove these oversights to make maintenance a more accessible process.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
8,892 Posts
Double vanity utilizing a cross instead of a cross-wye. A cross wye will make the drain cleaning for that task when both drains foul a simple task.
Nomenclature differs from region to region, so I'd appreciate it if you posted photo's of the two fittings in question when you have a few minutes.

The fitting in the photo below is called a partition cross or a fixture cross on the West Coast, but I've heard them called by different names in other parts of the country.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
432 Posts
Had a boss of mine tell me once that "You dont know sh*t about plumbing until you do service work. Repairing or working on someone else's f-ed up **** and figuring out how to do it without making a bigger mess or problem, that's plumbing son."

Having worked both sides of the trade, I know a hell of a lot more now than I did before I did service work, and am constantly cussing the new construction guys for f-ing me every chance they get.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
8,892 Posts
The fitting above does not meet IL plumbing code. Hydaulic gradient is broken.

A sanitary cross can be used here to serve a double lav. BUT, a clean out must be installed in the riser that serves the lavs.
I get what You're saying about hydraulic gradient and even agree with you.

And yet a Sanitary Cross would be prohibited to serve a pair of lavs on the West Coast because the radial openings aren't of a sufficient enough sweep to prevent effluent from entering the other opening.

The kicker for me is that a medium sweep 90 is permissible for horizontal to vertical drainage transitions here on the Left Coast, which is essentially the same radius as that found in a Sanitary Cross.

These kind of regional differences make it very difficult to pick up and take your trade to a different state.

Here is another acceptable practice that is unique to the Left Coast:

It is a kitchen sink rough-in with a Johnson Tee, a type of dishwasher air gap found, AFAIK, only on the Left Coast.
 

Attachments

·
Banned
Joined
·
8,892 Posts
I have heard all about the Johnson Tee, and as far as I know, that is strictly a WA thing. I don't see anything that would violate UPC, it just isn't found down here.
They're even manufactured here in WA -- I suspect they'll be phased out after the next code revision in 2012, though. The manufacturer isn't interested in retooling his production line in order to increase the size of the inlet.

There have been arguments for years about the wisdom of taking a 7/8" discharge hose, the size commonly found on higher end dishwashers these days and throttling it down to 5/8", which is essentially what a Johnson Tee does.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
I once ran into this double vanity problem, I ended up opening the wall inside the vanity and installing a clean out on the vent right above the tee. I was lucky that the vanity had a drywall back so after a small drywall repair the customer had a nice hidden clean out, worked out nicely.
 

·
www.DunbarPlumbing.com
Joined
·
5,480 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Had a boss of mine tell me once that "You dont know sh*t about plumbing until you do service work. Repairing or working on someone else's f-ed up **** and figuring out how to do it without making a bigger mess or problem, that's plumbing son."

Having worked both sides of the trade, I know a hell of a lot more now than I did before I did service work, and am constantly cussing the new construction guys for f-ing me every chance they get.

My thoughts exactly. That's why I will change some designs regardless of code reference. 2 items that I feel strongly enough to entertain a solid debate.

why hide a clean out? doesnt that defeat the purpose if know one but you knows its there to accesss?
Clean outs are so notorious for being hidden that anyone is hard pressed to enforce access to one. A very difficult situation that affects the long term AND the maintenance of any system.

Try telling a customer they have to open walls to find a cleanout in a finished basement and they look at you and say "Well, last time there was a clog they opened it from the lavatory in the back bathroom."

???

Do F***king what? This is a main drain clog leading to your yard! :furious: Some people don't get it, even if they had a lavatory sink clog up and think it's the same pipe that 4 times its size. Then they get mad at you for correcting them of their ignorance of the situation. :rolleyes:

And yet a Sanitary Cross would be prohibited to serve a pair of lavs on the West Coast because the radial openings aren't of a sufficient enough sweep to prevent effluent from entering the other opening.

That constantly happens with a cross, the effluent trades back and forth and a camera inspection would prove it with 2 toilets installed and the camera pointing down in the center of the cross. If you have a toilet pulled and someone flushes above, you get the benefit of seeing just what shot out of someones arse, free of charge.

The two pictures you posted? That would work instantly in this area better than a cross wye, given the 45 degree intersection into the drain. Those tees are near impossible to find in my area and they most likely wouldn't pass code, but,

I can get a cable down that without any problems and not travel across, heading the cable where I would need it to go to remove the clog.


Asking for an inspector to approve, let alone tell a builder to approve/enforce an access panel for a cleanout below that cross is fruitless. Even if it is in there, no one is going to leave it open, no one is going to butcher out the back of a base cabinet to gain entry to that cleanout when the majority of the time the fixture operates error free.


What's the big deal?


Put yourself in a drain cleaners position when dealing with that scenario and you're fishing blindly looking at yourself in the mirror, getting pissed off not knowing how many times you're going to pull back and forth till the sound of rotation of the cable goes quiet instead of heading to the opposite trap or toilet.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,067 Posts
But, then you would have to get up on the roof with a drain machine.......................:jester::laughing:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Protech

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
12,585 Posts
I will admit that I've lugged my K-60 and equipment up onto a roof, (one time even a 2-story roof) but now that I'm smarter with age...:yes: I tell customer if they have no yard c.o., then I can install one.

If I get a customer who has had drain cleaning done before where the tech got up on the roof, I hit 'em with the line, well my insurance won't pay if something happens to me on the roof. So due to insurance regulations, I have to install a c.o.; I can't climb up like Tarzan or the last Roto-Rooter guy who was here last year.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,379 Posts
Here the Double Ty or Double combo is not legal; it was not legal in Ohio when I was there either. I am not sure if it is in the code here when I was doing new construction we used the southern building code and it required a cleanout at the base of a vertical drain stack.


Was that a 1½ standpipe for a washing machine?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
12,585 Posts
Richard Hilliard;178988[COLOR=red said:
][/COLOR]Here the Double Ty or Double combo is not legal; it was not legal in Ohio when I was there either. I am not sure if it is in the code here when I was doing new construction we used the southern building code and it required a cleanout at the base of a vertical drain stack.


Was that a 1½ standpipe for a washing machine?




Double combo isn't permitted by code? I wasn't aware.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,379 Posts
not for a verticle drain the drain is higher than the vent. That is why you will see stack tee's in place of the cross.

When I moved here I got the biggest kick out of you cannot pass a major by a minor. I never heard that phrase until Florida. Plumbing is plumbing but the terminology is different.

You can use them horizonatally
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tommy plumber

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
12,585 Posts
not for a verticle drain the drain is higher than the vent. That is why you will see stack tee's in place of the cross.

When I moved here I got the biggest kick out of you cannot pass a major by a minor. I never heard that phrase until Florida. Plumbing is plumbing but the terminology is different.

You can use them horizonatally




Oh now I understand, you were referring to using a double-combo in a situation where you need a double sanitary-tee i.e.: when flow is coming from a fixture (horiz) and flowing to a vertical pipe.

I have used double-combos when flow is horiz. to horiz. as in an underground situation, so when I read your post I thought the code had changed.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
12,585 Posts
not for a verticle drain the drain is higher than the vent. That is why you will see stack tee's in place of the cross.

When I moved here I got the biggest kick out of you cannot pass a major by a minor. I never heard that phrase until Florida. Plumbing is plumbing but the terminology is different.

You can use them horizonatally





Yup, that is what I was taught, you can't wash a major past a minor. I think that actually has changed, but I still practice it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
104 Posts
Widdershins said:
Nomenclature differs from region to region, so I'd appreciate it if you posted photo's of the two fittings in question when you have a few minutes.

The fitting in the photo below is called a partition cross or a fixture cross on the West Coast, but I've heard them called by different names in other parts of the country.
I know that as a figure 5

Prescription Plumbing Inc
P.O.Box 6378
Oceanside, CA 92502
 
1 - 20 of 31 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top