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philosopher and statesmen
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8,570 Posts
that water is cold in the winter

I may be a bit north of you, but this slush thing must have something to do with the way the your water lines are run. Cause up here, the ground is a constant temp where our line are, therefore, the temp stays a constant 52 degrees.

In the words of Britney Spears "Oops I did it again." Boo-Yah!!!

a lot of it comes from resivours in our area and some from ground wells that feed the city lines....

it can range from the 52 down to some damn cold water......

I have never taken a thermometer to check it ,

INDY....If you like tankless, then by all means, go for it.....
if it keeps you in business and pays your bills ,
tell the customer whatever you want to get them to buy one..

Sorry that I am just stateing cold hard facts....

.......
 

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philosopher and statesmen
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8,570 Posts
I dont see any utters.....

Milked her dry till she died!







Uhhhh...Dunbar, I dont see no utters on that cow....

what exactly have you been yanking on?????

I suggest that dont drink that milk....

I think that "cow" died happy ......:laughing::laughing:
 

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I Married Up
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16,933 Posts
Discussion Starter · #104 · (Edited)

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The Token Engineer
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1,086 Posts
Tankless dying because of no tax credits, I doubt it.

Take for example a Honda Civic Base Car:

One a Sedan with 4cyl gas engine with MSRP of $15,805
with combined average mileage of 30 MPG
the other a
Hybrid Sedan 4cyl with a base price MSRP of $ 23,950
combined average mileage of 41 MPG

Difference between models of 11 MPG better with the Hybrid.

At 7% sales tax, the price difference between the two is $8,715.00 without haggling (I heard there is no budging on Hybrids so my point gets better)

A normal driver driving 15,000 miles a year and gas at $2.75 per gallon, the annual fuel costs are:

Gas-$1,375.00
Hybrid-$1,006.00

With a savings of $369 a year, the payback for the Hybrid is 23 years, does anyone these days that would buy a hybrid keep it that long?

So you can see it makes no sense to buy a hybrid, but many do, so I don't think Tankless is about to go away, with or without tax credits.

Comparisons:
Hybrids go farther on a tank of gas, tankless delivers hot water forever.

My question: why are plumbers so concerned about payback for their customers when its not even considered anywhere else? When is the last time you considered payback on a TV, Car, Washer, Computer, ............?
 

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Registered
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6,326 Posts
a lot of it comes from resivours in our area and some from ground wells that feed the city lines....

it can range from the 52 down to some damn cold water......

I have never taken a thermometer to check it ,

INDY....If you like tankless, then by all means, go for it.....
if it keeps you in business and pays your bills ,
tell the customer whatever you want to get them to buy one..

Sorry that I am just stateing cold hard facts....

.......

Sorry Mark, but with few exceptions, most of your assertions have been opinion. Most of what was said has been highly speculative. Then there is the accusation of someone out right lying to sell a tankless.

After someone explained the water from a reservoir, I can see you argument. So I will give you that.
 

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I Married Up
Joined
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16,933 Posts
Discussion Starter · #109 ·
...tell the customer whatever you want to get them to buy one...
I think you might still missing the point MM. I don't think many of us buy into all the marketing and 'green' promises made by the tankless manufacturers. For me it is no different that selling a polished brass faucet before PVD finishes were available. Not every plumbing purchase is about function and cost. Sometimes people just want it because they want it. Even if it is not what I would put in my own home, if a customer has been given the pros and cons, and believes the pros weigh heavier for them, then a beautifully installed tankless water heater they shall have.

There is a luxury to having endless hot water and gaining square footage in your home. If a client is willing to pay for that luxury, then so be it.
 

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philosopher and statesmen
Joined
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8,570 Posts
I agree with you

I think you might still missing the point MM. I don't think many of us buy into all the marketing and 'green' promises made by the tankless manufacturers. For me it is no different that selling a polished brass faucet before PVD finishes were available. Not every plumbing purchase is about function and cost. Sometimes people just want it because they want it. Even if it is not what I would put in my own home, if a customer has been given the pros and cons, and believes the pros weigh heavier for them, then a beautifully installed tankless water heater they shall have.

There is a luxury to having endless hot water and gaining square footage in your home. If a client is willing to pay for that luxury, then so be it.

if they want one , they want one... and that is fine with me
just like it states on my web site.....
as long as they go into it with eyes wide open knowing what
they are getting themselves into , then its ok.......:eek:

http://weilhammerplumbing.com/houseofhorrors/

.I would rather be looked upon as a fool than a
snake oil salesman or a Freije saltless softener salesman...

I see the the end of the road for them
unless Obama decides to extend the tax credits....
I was around back in 1986 when they ended the solar
tax credits and I watched a lot of places fold up and blow away
I will be willing to bet $$$ it will go down about
the same all over again this time....
you can deny that the crap is gonna hit the fan all you want
but their is a very strong possiblity it will happen..

I will probably pass it on to 3pk or anyone else willing to
give me a finders fee of 150 bucks .....
then its their problem:thumbup:...
 

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Hecho In America
Joined
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4,161 Posts
Tankless dying because of no tax credits, I doubt it.

Take for example a Honda Civic Base Car:

One a Sedan with 4cyl gas engine with MSRP of $15,805
with combined average mileage of 30 MPG
the other a
Hybrid Sedan 4cyl with a base price MSRP of $ 23,950
combined average mileage of 41 MPG

Difference between models of 11 MPG better with the Hybrid.

At 7% sales tax, the price difference between the two is $8,715.00 without haggling (I heard there is no budging on Hybrids so my point gets better)

A normal driver driving 15,000 miles a year and gas at $2.75 per gallon, the annual fuel costs are:

Gas-$1,375.00
Hybrid-$1,006.00

With a savings of $369 a year, the payback for the Hybrid is 23 years, does anyone these days that would buy a hybrid keep it that long?

So you can see it makes no sense to buy a hybrid, but many do, so I don't think Tankless is about to go away, with or without tax credits.

Comparisons:
Hybrids go farther on a tank of gas, tankless delivers hot water forever.

My question: why are plumbers so concerned about payback for their customers when its not even considered anywhere else? When is the last time you considered payback on a TV, Car, Washer, Computer, ............?
Manipulate those figgures however you want, they will be on the shelves before long...dusty shelves that is.

Why not buy a Jetta diesel for about the same money, maybe less. No nasty batteries to deal with at some point. Get around 45 MPG + and the thing will run for over 200K miles, plus you don't have to find a electrical outlet powered by the evil coal fired power plant.
 

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I Married Up
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16,933 Posts
Discussion Starter · #112 ·
I was around back in 1986 when they ended the solar
tax credits and I watched a lot of places fold up and blow away
I will be willing to bet $$$ it will go down about
the same all over again this time....
you can deny that the crap is gonna hit the fan all you want
but their is a very strong possiblity it will happen..
I'm with you on the tax credit. The government robs money from earners to subsidize feel gooders way too much. The economics of someone wanting the luxury of endless hot water is not the issue. It costs more money to install, to maintain, and saves precious little on fuel. But. that hardly makes it snake oil.

Tankless heaters are good for what they do. Endless stream of hot water at a specified gpm at a specified rise in temperature. As was stated before nobody buys a Ferrari to save money but they buy them none the less.

It is truly sad that the whole tankless marketing scheme has been based on the fallacy of going green instead of marketing them on the merits they do have and their are many. :yes:

The scam is their corporate marketing, not the viability of the product.
 

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The Token Engineer
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1,086 Posts
Tankless, Hybrid cars, solar, residential heating and cooling, home appliance, all those sales have slowed, most excitement driven by tax credits and local state rebates.

But those that want it will still buy one regardless of a plumbers stumbling block of payback.

How does a bronze finish faucet "pay you back" versus chrome?

Isn't it the customers money to spend and you to take??

Perhaps your time would be better spent standing at the beverage isle at the grocery store convincing shoppers to purchase the generic colas versus name brands, thats where the payback is.

Australia is in the process of banning inefficient water heating appliances, by 2020, I expect to see it here too. A.O. Smith knows that, if they cant build one, might as well partner up (Takagi).
 

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The Token Engineer
Joined
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1,086 Posts
Manipulate those figgures however you want, they will be on the shelves before long...dusty shelves that is.

Why not buy a Jetta diesel for about the same money, maybe less. No nasty batteries to deal with at some point. Get around 45 MPG + and the thing will run for over 200K miles, plus you don't have to find a electrical outlet powered by the evil coal fired power plant.
(Hybrids dont plug in)

I agree on the Diesel car however fuel costs don't always work in its favor.

The gas tankless industry is expected to be 450,000 units in 2010, approximately 10% of gas tanks sold. Yes fueled by tax credits. However given the fact that in 2007 it was 235,000 units, seeing increases every year, without tax credits most those years, I doubt the trend will stop.
 

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٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶&#
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8,329 Posts
I'm not arguing. My dishwasher doesn't have a built in heater. When I used to do new construction we would run 2 hot lines 1 would be 120 for lavs and tubs. The other would be 140. that would feed the washer and dish washer.
For my house I like to take a hot shower. 120 wouldn't cut it. It wouldn't be bad to pre heat and then have it dump into a nother heater.
I'll pay pal you 100 bucks if you can stand under 120 degree shower for 10 minutes.

it's against the law to have a spa above 106 in florida due to scolding. you actually think you can go 15 degrees more than that?!?!
 

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Super Moderator
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12,596 Posts
I'll pay pal you 100 bucks if you can stand under 120 degree shower for 10 minutes.

it's against the law to have a spa above 106 in florida due to scolding. you actually think you can go 15 degrees more than that?!?!

I agree. I have tried to hold my finger under a faucet with 120 F water flowing from it and couldn't do it. 120 F is plenty hot for DHW. Commercial is another story.
 

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Registered
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79 Posts
Tankless, Hybrid cars, solar, residential heating and cooling, home appliance, all those sales have slowed, most excitement driven by tax credits and local state rebates.

But those that want it will still buy one regardless of a plumbers stumbling block of payback.

How does a bronze finish faucet "pay you back" versus chrome?

Isn't it the customers money to spend and you to take??

Perhaps your time would be better spent standing at the beverage isle at the grocery store convincing shoppers to purchase the generic colas versus name brands, thats where the payback is.

Australia is in the process of banning inefficient water heating appliances, by 2020, I expect to see it here too. A.O. Smith knows that, if they cant build one, might as well partner up (Takagi).
I've put in the high end faucets and the car wash showers that don't pay anyone back on their investment. That is not necessarily a good comparison to the tankless industry because it is one of the sales tools promoted by all of the tankless manufacturers whether true or not.

So it is something that is forced to be addressed in each potential tankless situation whereas a multi-valve Dornbracht shower system does not as there is no savings promoted.

The issue that arises is when a customer asks a trained, informed, and ethical plumber their opinion about tanks & tankless.
 

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Hecho In America
Joined
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4,161 Posts
(Hybrids dont plug in)

I agree on the Diesel car however fuel costs don't always work in its favor.

The gas tankless industry is expected to be 450,000 units in 2010, approximately 10% of gas tanks sold. Yes fueled by tax credits. However given the fact that in 2007 it was 235,000 units, seeing increases every year, without tax credits most those years, I doubt the trend will stop.
My hybrid does.......it's a Powerstroke. :whistling2:
 
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