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you two can debate this till hell freezes over....
What do you charge to de-lime tankless heaters?? once a year $175.00 ....$250???


if you dont factor in the mandatory maintaince then you are simply
lieing to the customer about payback... just to get them to go tankless

that is called .........greed......... you blind yourself to the facts and mis-inform
the customer just to get to make some big bucks and then you walk away
then 8 months pass and they call you and you say oooppps I forgot to tell you
that you need to de-lime these things every so often........


the average return on the investment works out to about
22 years...consumer reports 08.. that is with a saveings of
a massive $80 bucks a year over a normal tank type heater..

wow, 80 bucks , I want to run out and get one right now.....

read it for yourself..

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...eaters/overview/tankless-water-heaters-ov.htm




you must factor in the de-limeing service that MUST be
done at least once a year or sometimes TWICE...in Indiana...

are you planning on going out for the next 22 years for FREE to do this??

What do you plan to charge the customer to DE_LIME
their tankless unit each year??? Does $175.00. sound fair???

basically...if the customer does not do their own maintaince
on these units their really is no saveings at all..
their is actually a huge loss over a tank type heater.. :yes::yes::yes:

now once the tax credits end........

the fat lady sings like a songbird............



One can find infinite literature/reports for or against tankless. And as was pointed out the return can be manipulated for or against the actual return as well. So I wont argue those points. But I will say that most of the ones Ive installed, the owner did not buy based on the return.(Does one buy a Ferrari based on a return?)It was more for the fact that they will never run out of hot water and will never have to replace the unit. And the wives loved the extra space that was cleared by getting rid of old tank.

As for the descaling, there are several ways to handle that.
* Charge X amount per year as most have pointed out. (A gross waist of money for the owner indeed).
* Install a point of use descaler (Noritz has their own or you can use any other). 1 or 2 de-scalings would pay for it.
* Install a softener. X per year forever to descale or X one time only and have the benefit of a new softener.
* Include the descaling in your annual maintenance plan (if you offer this service) just as you would include flushing the tank water heater.


Or plan B: Stand back and watch, clearing the way for those who do offer them.:jester:
 

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philosopher and statesmen
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I will stand back and watch

.

As for the descaling, there are several ways to handle that.
* Charge X amount per year as most have pointed out. (A gross waist of money for the owner indeed).
* Install a point of use descaler (Noritz has their own or you can use any other). 1 or 2 de-scalings would pay for it.
* Install a softener. X per year forever to descale or X one time only and have the benefit of a new softener.
* Include the descaling in your annual maintenance plan (if you offer this service) just as you would include flushing the tank water heater.


Or plan B: Stand back and watch, clearing the way for those who do offer them.:jester:

No one has yet stated how much they charge to de-scale one

I have heard quotes for tankless heaters as high as 5900
which did include a water softener ....
. they wont work correctly without one in these parts....


Personally , I would rather just do plan B
clear the way for everyone else who sells them....

then stand back and watch the fat lady sing on dec 31st.....:laughing:
 

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No one has stated how much they charge to de-scale one

I have heard quotes as high as 5900 which included a water softener ....
. they wont work correctly without one in these parts....


Personally , I would rather just do plan B
clear the way for everyone else who sells them....

then stand back and watch the fat lady sing.....:laughing:
I think its great of you to decide that. A person has to know their limitations, and if your content to not install them, then you are correct, it will clear the way for someone else to have that portion of the market.

We have most plumbing outfits up here that agree with your way of thinking, and I find it to be of benefit to me, if I can start selling that type of equipment, then hopefully I will fill a niche and grow my company.

I have only quoted a handful of tankless, but I make dang sure, that the potential customer knows exactly what the score is, no hidden costs. Of course, I do not quote a tankless alone, but give alternatives. I find that when I do that the customer will pick something, and a job is done, money is made. So all in all, tankless will make me money if I install them or not. :laughing:

Who is to say that additional tax credits will not be passed? If they are, then so much for you fat lady.
 

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I have a querstion.............How many plumbers actually have them in their home?
I have one.


I have installed quite a few of them over the years, price, rebates, and energy savings were not really a factor in any of them, the selling point was convenience, space, or the need for unlimited hot water. I have installed them in homes, restaurants, condos, and in food manufacturing facilities, they have multiple uses.

Selling them simply on rebates, saving money on energy bills, etc. to me is taking the wrong approach to selling them, or you just don't want to sell or install them.
 

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I Married Up
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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
...then hopefully I will fill a niche and grow my company....

I have only quoted a handful of tankless, but I make dang sure, that the potential customer knows exactly what the score is, no hidden costs. Of course, I do not quote a tankless alone, but give alternatives. I find that when I do that the customer will pick something, and a job is done, money is made. So all in all, tankless will make me money if I install them or not...
I like the niche offering.:thumbsup: That is an important step for any new company (and some not so new also).

As long as the continued commitment for maintenance costs are discussed ahead of time then I think it can be a great option for someone that needs an endless supply of hot water.
 

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J. McCabe Plumbing Inc.
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I have one.


I have installed quite a few of them over the years, price, rebates, and energy savings were not really a factor in any of them, the selling point was convenience, space, or the need for unlimited hot water. I have installed them in homes, restaurants, condos, and in food manufacturing facilities, they have multiple uses.

Selling them simply on rebates, saving money on energy bills, etc. to me is taking the wrong approach to selling them, or you just don't want to sell or install them.


I agree with you Killer. I've installed almost 80 units over the past 5 years, starting with the one at my home. It's a Rinnai. I installed it to replace an electric tank water heater in the home and use the space for a clothes dryer.

I have never flushed the unit, nor have I had to do any maintanance to it. I hardly even know it's there. It works like the day it was installed and has never failed to provide plenty of hot water (except on the one day we had a power outage)

I was very much against Tankless before I installed one in my home. Since then I've learned a lot about em and although I have not had one customer say anything bad, I would say their not for every situation.

I carefully explain to all my customers the advantages, disadvantages and misnomers about Tankless water heating. I've turned away the oportunity to install approx 50 more, just because their financial situation or the layout of the existing utilities didn't make the project right.

I want customers who call back because they want me to do more work, not call back to complain about something I didn't tell em about before I installed it.
 

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Tax credits ending is not going to stop tankless water heaters from being installed. They were being installed here long before the socialist came into power and started offering cash for clunkers.
 

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i'm not poking you here. how do you get 5 years, with out cleaning? if you can go 5, can you just wear it out without ever flushing? 22 years? breid................:rockon:
I've never cleaned mine in four years, but Chicago water is naturally soft and relatively particulate free from the treatment process it goes through prior to distribution.
 

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philosopher and statesmen
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does anyone ever flush these things???

Hey , I know my limitations.. knock yourself out INDE
I dont want to fool with them .....

but still, even with this thread going on and on..and on...

I have yet to hear from anyone who claims to

have installed them exactly how much they charge for
\
about 2 hours of their time to de-lime one of them ???

is this some tradsecret that would possibly kill future sales

if potential customers were to look on this site????


I would say it is worth every bit of $195.00...

am I high or am I low???


 

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www.DunbarPlumbing.com
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One can find infinite literature/reports for or against tankless. And as was pointed out the return can be manipulated for or against the actual return as well. So I wont argue those points. But I will say that most of the ones Ive installed, the owner did not buy based on the return.(Does one buy a Ferrari based on a return?)It was more for the fact that they will never run out of hot water and will never have to replace the unit. And the wives loved the extra space that was cleared by getting rid of old tank.

As for the descaling, there are several ways to handle that.
* Charge X amount per year as most have pointed out. (A gross waist of money for the owner indeed).
* Install a point of use descaler (Noritz has their own or you can use any other). 1 or 2 de-scalings would pay for it.
* Install a softener. X per year forever to descale or X one time only and have the benefit of a new softener.
* Include the descaling in your annual maintenance plan (if you offer this service) just as you would include flushing the tank water heater.


Or plan B: Stand back and watch, clearing the way for those who do offer them.:jester:

What state are you in
 

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www.DunbarPlumbing.com
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I like the niche offering.:thumbsup: That is an important step for any new company (and some not so new also).

As long as the continued commitment for maintenance costs are discussed ahead of time then I think it can be a great option for someone that needs an endless supply of hot water.



And you have licensed plumbers on here stating for the record that they aren't even doing that.
 

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J. McCabe Plumbing Inc.
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i'm not poking you here. how do you get 5 years, with out cleaning? if you can go 5, can you just wear it out without ever flushing? 22 years? breid................:rockon:
I'm not sure why the thing works as wel as it does, but I plan to let it go till it seizes up. Really

I'm sure it's not the best thing for it but as I tell my customers who worry they may miss a cleaning, I've missed a cleaning for five years.

I don't have a softener or water conditioner and the water around here is not spring water.

For me, this is a test to see what the effects of poor service are:laughing::laughing:....Maybe I'm just too busy to work on my own plumbing:yes:

OK, call me goofy
 

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philosopher and statesmen
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Potential sales of tankless heaters........

Hey , I know my limitations.. knock yourself out INDE
I dont want to fool with them .....

but still, even with this thread going on and on..and on...

I have yet to hear from anyone who claims to

have installed them exactly how much they charge for
\
about 2 hours of their time to de-lime one of them ???

is this some tradsecret that would possibly kill future sales

if potential customers were to look on this site????


I would say it is worth every bit of $195.00...

am I high or am I low???
Still No one wants to answer this simple question..

lets say you have someone that wants a tankless water heater , and they already know about the
annual or bi annual flushing they need...

they are about to sign the contract for $$3500 for installation, and its a very easy job to do...but they look up and ask you......

does this price include isolation valves in the system ??
and how much do you usually charge to come out and de-scale my new tankless heater??...
Or is that service FREE with installation??..

this appears to be a major deal breaker

now...do you just stare at them like a deer looking into oncomming headlights???

or do you come up FAST with a figure to do this job for them every year????

.so....... lets play like I am a customer ....:jester:

would someone who sells these things please shoot me their price to del lime one????.

.







 

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...

I would give the options I gave in my previous post. And I would not leave the issue to become an objection at the end by making them have to ask.
If it were an existing install and they wanted it flushed I would offer them our annual maintenance plan for under $100 a year that includes a descaling flush.


Still No one wants to answer this simple question..

lets say you have someone that wants a tankless water heater , and they already know about the
annual or bi annual flushing they need...

they are about to sign the contract for $$3500 for installation, and its a very easy job to do...but they look up and ask you......

does this price include isolation valves in the system ??
and how much do you usually charge to come out and de-scale my new tankless heater??...
Or is that service FREE with installation??..

this appears to be a major deal breaker

now...do you just stare at them like a deer looking into oncomming headlights???

or do you come up FAST with a figure to do this job for them every year????

.so....... lets play like I am a customer ....:jester:

would someone who sells these things please shoot me their price to del lime one????.

.[/
 

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PS:
Of course the iso valves are included. (only a hack would install without them).
Would you like to add any of these accessories today for an additional savings of X. (point of use descaler, whole house softener, battery backup in case of a power outage, plumbing maintenance plan, etc)?





Still No one wants to answer this simple question..

lets say you have someone that wants a tankless water heater , and they already know about the
annual or bi annual flushing they need...

they are about to sign the contract for $$3500 for installation, and its a very easy job to do...but they look up and ask you......

does this price include isolation valves in the system ??
and how much do you usually charge to come out and de-scale my new tankless heater??...
Or is that service FREE with installation??..

this appears to be a major deal breaker

now...do you just stare at them like a deer looking into oncomming headlights???

or do you come up FAST with a figure to do this job for them every year????

.so....... lets play like I am a customer ....:jester:

would someone who sells these things please shoot me their price to del lime one????.

.







 

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Interesting thread. I don't see it as being completely cut and dry.

I do have a few questions though.

1. Could the average H.O. do this on a yearly basis without having to use the services of a plumber?

If so, then it's not any different than recommending a customer flush their water heater once a year. Very few do it though. When we sell a water heater, we don't discuss pricing for flushing on an annual basis.

2. Is it a manufacturer recommendation, but not really a requirement?

Seems to be since several have said they have done nothing with their own tankless units in several years.

3. If you were selling a Bentley, would you point out to the customer that tune-ups are more expensive? I think tankless may fall into this category since several have agreed that cost and payback are usually not the determining factors in purchasing a tankless.

4. Since most have agreed endless hot water is the biggest selling point, why are the manufacturers trying to PUSH (very hard IMO) the GREEN factor and energy savings? I had a rep tell me point blank, the savings is based on a consumer using water the same as before the install. However, he did say most consumers change their habits regarding water usage after the install.

5. Also, why should taxpayers be subsidizing something that is being promoted as saving energy, when in reality, the savings is minimal? Factor in the additional water usage that happens with this luxury and the overall GREEN savings is nil. There is an energy cost associated with delivering clean water and treating waste water.

All that said, if our customer wanted one, we would gladly install one. :yes:

Since we do not run out of hot water, I'll save the money and spend it on another luxury.

Stillaround might have a clue as to where I would spend my money. :laughing:
 

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I Married Up
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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
I never consider offering a tankless without the isolation valves. Given the manufacturer's persistent beating of the "MUST FLUSH" drum, I am surprised it is not a mandatory item.

Since we have never been called back to do descaling on tankless units we've installed, I have no reference point for time allowance or materials used. Maybe it is not as big of an issue as I thought.
 

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J. McCabe Plumbing Inc.
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I charge a fee of 300.00 for a flush. The actual flush is 1 hour and the cost includes local travel, flushing fluids and the use of my pump and hoses.

I also suggest the customer purchase a flush kit from me for 400.00 and that price will include the first flush and I'll show them how to do it themselves if they would like to save a little when they do the next flush.

I've found that most don't want to do it themselves cuz afterall they have enough to do, like changing the batteries in their smoke detectors:no: NOT!

BTW...While the system is flushing, I provide a free service to check the condition of all their plumbing fixtures, faucets and valves. This usually generates another repair or replacement fee.:thumbsup:
 
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