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philosopher and statesmen
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can you say edsel???

once the bottom falls out, the companies go under

the service and support will dry up and fade away eventually
and then everyone will be left on their own....to fend for themselves.....


when the units go bad, they will most likely get replaced with tank type heaters
because that will be the only logical choice.....

 

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philosopher and statesmen
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been wanting one

i have been wanting to try one but cant bring myself
to get rid of the 75 gallon bradford white I presently have....

I have a brand new nortsz in the box supposed to be able to do 6.9 gpm, about a 2005 unit....

but I cant bring myself to install it...
 

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Former Moderator
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9,817 Posts
We have an 80 gallon electric Whirlpool water heater (came with the house) and a recirc. pump. At one time, there were six of us and we rarely run out of HW.

If it goes soon, I would seriously consider one of the hybrid heat pump water heaters. Of course, the Federal Tax Rebate weighs heavily in the decision. No rebate, don't know that we would spring for it. IDK

In any case, Tankless is not even a consideration. My soon to be three teenagers would NEVER leave the bathroom. ;)
 

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I've installed a couple and I've have not had any problems.

I do somework for a resturant chain and all of their waterheaters have been replaced with a pair of Takagis. I go in once a year and flush them with CLR. I have installed valve kits on each unit to speed the process. I flush each unit for 45 minutes. I charge 2 hours to do the pair and charge a pump fee and charge for the CLR.

CLR is fairly corrosive to steel, it not recommended for use on copper. Takagi says use CLR, Rinnai has their own brand of poison they push which is just as corrosive.
 

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www.DunbarPlumbing.com
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5,480 Posts
For restaurants, no matter where they are in the united states, is a great application. Constant hot water demand that can span hours at a time.

Nothing worse than a busy night and now the dishes aren't getting clean. A danger all to itself.
 

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I have a querstion.............How many plumbers actually have them in their home?

I do! :clap:

I've had an exterior Rinnai 84 for the last 5 1/2 years and have had no problems. I've flushed it and that's it. Our house is small and by going tankless I got an extra closet in the house and didn't have to deal with an ugly water heater dog house on the side of the house.


Pretty sure Randy (RSP) has one too.




Paul
 

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So far, I have seen a lot of plumbers post about not liking them, but no one has stated real solid reasons for that. Except the payback, and possibly the cleaning procedures.
Not having had a chance to install them, but being very interested in it here are a few observations that I have made.
1. There are several plumbers on here that install quite a few, and make who knows how much money doing it.
2. Ignorance on the workings of a tankless prevent many from pursuing any type of attempt at gaining some market share with them.
3. Most "Problems" are from improperly installed units, and therefore cannot be blamed on the product.
4. I am convinced that with many other types of products, we the plumber are our own worst enemy.
That's it for this round.

Man you said a mouthful there. When properly sized, and the tax credits and utility rebates available you would be a fool not to install them.They have THE best manufacturers waranty and you will never replace a heater as you will with a tank heater. Only parts when the time comes. Financing helps a lot too. Noritz is what I install. Have done several warranty jobs for Bosch and Rheem. Never a Noritz or a Rinnai. I dont do a lot compared to others but will be offering them every opportunity I get this winter and forever after.
 

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Ok, Red.

52 degree water.
2.5 bath
Natural Gas Readily available
Mechanical room is a nasty closest type room. Tank-less easily moved to exterior wall in other part of basement.
They have gas forced air, for heating and a/c
Ok, I hope that is enough information. My turn

What would the cost and perfomance be for a high output tank, or your other options?

Dunbar, Why should they have to use moderation, when there is a solution that will provide endless hot water. To be honest, I would not be a happy customer, if I spent a grand and still had to use moderation when talking how water.
Present both options with features and benefits of each. Point out that if they plan to live there more than 5-6 years tankless is a great longer term investment, especially since they are adding kids. Tank is cheaper now if thats what you want, but ...
 

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Hecho In America
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4,161 Posts
The payback is 20 yrs min. With the added maintenance I don't really see the upside, with the exception of us putting more money in OUR pockets.

At 4-5K for a retrofit install the HO can have several tank type heaters and as was said earlier the HO's will end up using more fuel and water with a tankless.
 

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The payback is 20 yrs min. With the added maintenance I don't really see the upside, with the exception of us putting more money in OUR pockets.

At 4-5K for a retrofit install the HO can have several tank type heaters and as was said earlier the HO's will end up using more fuel and water with a tankless.
Would you mind sharing the math you used to arrive at a 20 year return? And who says everyone wants to suffer the inconvenience of replacing a tank 3 to 1? They may not be for everyone. That much is true. But if you give the option and say 1 in 10 want one who is it bad for if they know the facts? Who am I to push them away? Different strokes for different folks.
 

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Hecho In America
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After many questions to different tankless reps; one finally, although extremely reluctant explained the payback was 20 yrs minimum. One can pencil whip the payback into all sorts of scenarios, but I personally don't see the benefit, short or long term. But then again I don't see the benefit to owning a Chevy, either.
 

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philosopher and statesmen
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their is no pay back

Would you mind sharing the math you used to arrive at a 20 year return? And who says everyone wants to suffer the inconvenience of replacing a tank 3 to 1? They may not be for everyone. That much is true. But if you give the option and say 1 in 10 want one who is it bad for if they know the facts? Who am I to push them away? Different strokes for different folks.

you two can debate this till hell freezes over....
What do you charge to de-lime tankless heaters?? once a year $175.00 ....$250???


if you dont factor in the mandatory maintaince then you are simply
lieing to the customer about payback... just to get them to go tankless

that is called .........greed......... you blind yourself to the facts and mis-inform
the customer just to get to make some big bucks and then you walk away
then 8 months pass and they call you and you say oooppps I forgot to tell you
that you need to de-lime these things every so often........


the average return on the investment works out to about
22 years...consumer reports 08.. that is with a saveings of
a massive $80 bucks a year over a normal tank type heater..

wow, 80 bucks , I want to run out and get one right now.....

read it for yourself..

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...eaters/overview/tankless-water-heaters-ov.htm




you must factor in the de-limeing service that MUST be
done at least once a year or sometimes TWICE...in Indiana...

are you planning on going out for the next 22 years for FREE to do this??

What do you plan to charge the customer to DE_LIME
their tankless unit each year??? Does $175.00. sound fair???

basically...if the customer does not do their own maintaince
on these units their really is no saveings at all..
their is actually a huge loss over a tank type heater.. :yes::yes::yes:

now once the tax credits end........

the fat lady sings like a songbird............

 

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I Married Up
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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
if you dont factor in the mandatory maintaince then you are simply
lieing to the customer about payback... just to get them to go tankless
That's really where I was going when I started the thread. Are we really informing the customer of the LONG TERM commitment to tankless maintenance costs?

My 2nd point is this...Are WE really aware of the long term commitment to tankless maintenance costs? (Not so much lying but...) Or are we just turning a blind eye to the service issues down the road?
 

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philosopher and statesmen
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8,605 Posts
a blind eye

That's really where I was going when I started the thread. Are we really informing the customer of the LONG TERM commitment to tankless maintenance costs?

My 2nd point is this...Are WE really aware of the long term commitment to tankless maintenance costs? (Not so much lying but...) Or are we just turning a blind eye to the service issues down the road?

YES.... a blind eye is one way to put it nicely...
then you get people who think its almost their patrotic
duty to get a tankless heater to save the planet and stimulate the economy........


a blind eye has been turned towards a lot of things
over the past 10 years just to keep this economy going....

like the houseing bubble and mortgage fraud..
and many other nasty things going on that we cant mention here......


anyway if it has to be serviced every year for $175
x 20 years, and you only save $80 bucks max per year...


the math dont add up but people still think that they
need one .... :laughing::laughing:



.tax credits still end on 12-31-10.




.
 

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As far as high end gas goes, I put in an AO Smith Vertex in a few months ago and I am pretty sure recovery rate on the 50 gal was close to 100 gal an hour(correct me if I'm wrong on that). At a unit cost of 1600 and %90 efficiency that is a great deal if you need the hot water. They also have recirc lines built into the side.
 

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The payback is 20 yrs min. With the added maintenance I don't really see the upside, with the exception of us putting more money in OUR pockets.

At 4-5K for a retrofit install the HO can have several tank type heaters and as was said earlier the HO's will end up using more fuel and water with a tankless.
Funny thing about a 20 year return...I have lived in a couple places that I thought I would be in for the long haul...I have yet to make it anywhere past 6 years....I'm not too excited about a 20 year return.....:cry:
 
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