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philosopher and statesmen
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the death song for tankless.......

DUNBAR, REDWOOD
are you guys are all forgetting something here..

REMEMBER.....ALL THIS CRAP IS GOING DOWN THE DRAIN AT OF THE END OF THIS YEAR....WHEN THE TAX INCENTIVES END...12-31-10


I had a long talk with the Rheem guy on Friday
at their cook out and they were at a loss to answer my biggest question...
acted like deer stareing into headlights...

once you dont get that 30% tax rebate how are
you going to make a tankless heater look feasable?????

how are you going to sell tankless once this
crutch is kicked out from underneath it????

and I also asked why would they sink more money
into tankless research and development with this hanging on
the horision.....????

I remember when those tax credits ended back in
1986 for the solar industry..... even the very best of them were all gone
and out of business in less than two years...


Without the TAX CREDITS, its all over ,
and the fat lady is getting ready to sing in a few short months.....:laughing::laughing::yes::yes:..








http://weilhammerplumbing.com/houseofhorrors/


if you want a dirt cheap tankless heater , just wait till next
spring --summer when the supply houses are stuck with about 50 of them and
cant sell them.....you should be able to get one for 1/3 of the cost
just because their will not be a market for them....




history is just repeating itself again.....
 

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philosopher and statesmen
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8,706 Posts
can you say edsel???

once the bottom falls out, the companies go under

the service and support will dry up and fade away eventually
and then everyone will be left on their own....to fend for themselves.....


when the units go bad, they will most likely get replaced with tank type heaters
because that will be the only logical choice.....

 

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philosopher and statesmen
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8,706 Posts
been wanting one

i have been wanting to try one but cant bring myself
to get rid of the 75 gallon bradford white I presently have....

I have a brand new nortsz in the box supposed to be able to do 6.9 gpm, about a 2005 unit....

but I cant bring myself to install it...
 

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philosopher and statesmen
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8,706 Posts
their is no pay back

Would you mind sharing the math you used to arrive at a 20 year return? And who says everyone wants to suffer the inconvenience of replacing a tank 3 to 1? They may not be for everyone. That much is true. But if you give the option and say 1 in 10 want one who is it bad for if they know the facts? Who am I to push them away? Different strokes for different folks.

you two can debate this till hell freezes over....
What do you charge to de-lime tankless heaters?? once a year $175.00 ....$250???


if you dont factor in the mandatory maintaince then you are simply
lieing to the customer about payback... just to get them to go tankless

that is called .........greed......... you blind yourself to the facts and mis-inform
the customer just to get to make some big bucks and then you walk away
then 8 months pass and they call you and you say oooppps I forgot to tell you
that you need to de-lime these things every so often........


the average return on the investment works out to about
22 years...consumer reports 08.. that is with a saveings of
a massive $80 bucks a year over a normal tank type heater..

wow, 80 bucks , I want to run out and get one right now.....

read it for yourself..

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...eaters/overview/tankless-water-heaters-ov.htm




you must factor in the de-limeing service that MUST be
done at least once a year or sometimes TWICE...in Indiana...

are you planning on going out for the next 22 years for FREE to do this??

What do you plan to charge the customer to DE_LIME
their tankless unit each year??? Does $175.00. sound fair???

basically...if the customer does not do their own maintaince
on these units their really is no saveings at all..
their is actually a huge loss over a tank type heater.. :yes::yes::yes:

now once the tax credits end........

the fat lady sings like a songbird............

 

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philosopher and statesmen
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8,706 Posts
a blind eye

That's really where I was going when I started the thread. Are we really informing the customer of the LONG TERM commitment to tankless maintenance costs?

My 2nd point is this...Are WE really aware of the long term commitment to tankless maintenance costs? (Not so much lying but...) Or are we just turning a blind eye to the service issues down the road?

YES.... a blind eye is one way to put it nicely...
then you get people who think its almost their patrotic
duty to get a tankless heater to save the planet and stimulate the economy........


a blind eye has been turned towards a lot of things
over the past 10 years just to keep this economy going....

like the houseing bubble and mortgage fraud..
and many other nasty things going on that we cant mention here......


anyway if it has to be serviced every year for $175
x 20 years, and you only save $80 bucks max per year...


the math dont add up but people still think that they
need one .... :laughing::laughing:



.tax credits still end on 12-31-10.




.
 

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philosopher and statesmen
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8,706 Posts
I will stand back and watch

.

As for the descaling, there are several ways to handle that.
* Charge X amount per year as most have pointed out. (A gross waist of money for the owner indeed).
* Install a point of use descaler (Noritz has their own or you can use any other). 1 or 2 de-scalings would pay for it.
* Install a softener. X per year forever to descale or X one time only and have the benefit of a new softener.
* Include the descaling in your annual maintenance plan (if you offer this service) just as you would include flushing the tank water heater.


Or plan B: Stand back and watch, clearing the way for those who do offer them.:jester:

No one has yet stated how much they charge to de-scale one

I have heard quotes for tankless heaters as high as 5900
which did include a water softener ....
. they wont work correctly without one in these parts....


Personally , I would rather just do plan B
clear the way for everyone else who sells them....

then stand back and watch the fat lady sing on dec 31st.....:laughing:
 

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philosopher and statesmen
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8,706 Posts
does anyone ever flush these things???

Hey , I know my limitations.. knock yourself out INDE
I dont want to fool with them .....

but still, even with this thread going on and on..and on...

I have yet to hear from anyone who claims to

have installed them exactly how much they charge for
\
about 2 hours of their time to de-lime one of them ???

is this some tradsecret that would possibly kill future sales

if potential customers were to look on this site????


I would say it is worth every bit of $195.00...

am I high or am I low???


 

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philosopher and statesmen
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8,706 Posts
Potential sales of tankless heaters........

Hey , I know my limitations.. knock yourself out INDE
I dont want to fool with them .....

but still, even with this thread going on and on..and on...

I have yet to hear from anyone who claims to

have installed them exactly how much they charge for
\
about 2 hours of their time to de-lime one of them ???

is this some tradsecret that would possibly kill future sales

if potential customers were to look on this site????


I would say it is worth every bit of $195.00...

am I high or am I low???
Still No one wants to answer this simple question..

lets say you have someone that wants a tankless water heater , and they already know about the
annual or bi annual flushing they need...

they are about to sign the contract for $$3500 for installation, and its a very easy job to do...but they look up and ask you......

does this price include isolation valves in the system ??
and how much do you usually charge to come out and de-scale my new tankless heater??...
Or is that service FREE with installation??..

this appears to be a major deal breaker

now...do you just stare at them like a deer looking into oncomming headlights???

or do you come up FAST with a figure to do this job for them every year????

.so....... lets play like I am a customer ....:jester:

would someone who sells these things please shoot me their price to del lime one????.

.







 

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philosopher and statesmen
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8,706 Posts
thank you for coughing up a price

I charge a fee of 300.00 for a flush. The actual flush is 1 hour and the cost includes local travel, flushing fluids and the use of my pump and hoses.

I also suggest the customer purchase a flush kit from me for 400.00 and that price will include the first flush and I'll show them how to do it themselves if they would like to save a little when they do the next flush.

I've found that most don't want to do it themselves cuz afterall they have enough to do, like changing the batteries in their smoke detectors:no: NOT!

BTW...While the system is flushing, I provide a free service to check the condition of all their plumbing fixtures, faucets and valves. This usually generates another repair or replacement fee.:thumbsup:
Wow.....thank you....

300 bucks is more salty than even I had thought it would be.......
so you save about 80 bucks a year with a tankless, but you have to spend about 300 bucks to get it cleaned:blink::blink::blink:

then if they want to be taught how to do it themselves, you will gladly show them and also inspect their home for plumbing problems for free while it is de-scaleing..... will you do the dishes and sweep the carpet too???

except for endless hot water, could someone please explain to me exactly where the saveings is with this product???

I guess I am just too stupid to understand the math here......:laughing::laughing:




 

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philosopher and statesmen
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8,706 Posts
I hear crickets chirping

oh.....I forgot to ask....

I can change out all the parts.. EVERYTHING on a 7 year old Bradford white gas defender in about 30 minutes...
Usually charge the customer about $195..

whats the minimum you can charge just to figure out and DIAGNOSE what is wrong with a 7 year old tannkless???.

then on average.... what is the down time and how long does it normally take to get something like a gas solenoid valve for a TAKAGI??

anyone care to ballpark this??


crickets chirping.... silence......................................
.............................................................................:laughing:






been saying all this for 8 years http://weilhammerplumbing.com/houseofhorrors/
 

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philosopher and statesmen
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8,706 Posts
Why anyone would want to change all parts on a 7 year old TANK heater is beyond me. But to each their own.



PS: I dont do "ball park" pricing over the phone (or internet forums). I can diagnose your problem and give you an accurate price right down to the penny so you wont have to guess if you'd like? :thumbup:

people have had me rebuild 15 year old heaters before
because they were selling the house or sold the house and did not want to shell out any extra money.....

if you have recently rebuilt a couple of Nortz
, you must have an invoice available with the final damages for the change outs.......

just wondering how ugly it got...

 

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philosopher and statesmen
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8,706 Posts
any maintaince???

I got a cow in my basement.


I can get milk on demand, as much as I want.

wow...you can get all the milk you want , endless hot milk

but dont you still got
to grab those utters and yank them every morning at 5am.
or the cow gets rather fussey with you???.:laughing::laughing:.

isnt that like scheduled maintaince???:laughing::yes:..
 

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philosopher and statesmen
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8,706 Posts
no thank you

MasterMark - I get that you don't see the value in tankless. However, if a customer really wanted one and was willing to pay for it, would you install it?

am I driveing my point home a little too much here..???
I am sorry if I am annoying and irritating some of you.....

no, Plumbcrazy.... I would probably let 3pk have it for a $200 finders fee.
and then its his problem to keep them happy down the road....
.

I have talked a lot of people out of them...and installed Rheem pro 75s
I am trying to build up a happy client base, not sell them something I morally
dont believe in like some of the big companies do in town .....

. Its sort of hard to tell someone the pay back is in 22+years......





anyway,,,,,
whats this got to do with the cow in Dunbars basement??.
 

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philosopher and statesmen
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philosopher and statesmen
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most of my customers

I'm not arguing. My dishwasher doesn't have a built in heater. When I used to do new construction we would run 2 hot lines 1 would be 120 for lavs and tubs. The other would be 140. that would feed the washer and dish washer.
For my house I like to take a hot shower. 120 wouldn't cut it. It wouldn't be bad to pre heat and then have it dump into a nother heater.

120 dont cut it, that is basically just a tad higher than pisswater....and most of my customers want the heater turned up to 130 --35...

I show them how to do it themselves, and I put on the invoice that it was on low when installed it.. what they do after I leave is at their own risk ..if they have young kids, then I usually warn them to be careful if they decide to turn it up

Once winter time comes and the water comes into the house like a ice cold slushey at about 40 degrees, then they complain on how the heater cant keep up at a wimpy 120....
its called stratification....


of course with a tankless ,
that in-comming winter slush water really makes it work very, very hard:laughing::yes:

oopps, I did it again....
 

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philosopher and statesmen
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8,706 Posts
that water is cold in the winter

I may be a bit north of you, but this slush thing must have something to do with the way the your water lines are run. Cause up here, the ground is a constant temp where our line are, therefore, the temp stays a constant 52 degrees.

In the words of Britney Spears "Oops I did it again." Boo-Yah!!!

a lot of it comes from resivours in our area and some from ground wells that feed the city lines....

it can range from the 52 down to some damn cold water......

I have never taken a thermometer to check it ,

INDY....If you like tankless, then by all means, go for it.....
if it keeps you in business and pays your bills ,
tell the customer whatever you want to get them to buy one..

Sorry that I am just stateing cold hard facts....

.......
 

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philosopher and statesmen
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8,706 Posts
I dont see any utters.....

Milked her dry till she died!







Uhhhh...Dunbar, I dont see no utters on that cow....

what exactly have you been yanking on?????

I suggest that dont drink that milk....

I think that "cow" died happy ......:laughing::laughing:
 

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philosopher and statesmen
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8,706 Posts
I agree with you

I think you might still missing the point MM. I don't think many of us buy into all the marketing and 'green' promises made by the tankless manufacturers. For me it is no different that selling a polished brass faucet before PVD finishes were available. Not every plumbing purchase is about function and cost. Sometimes people just want it because they want it. Even if it is not what I would put in my own home, if a customer has been given the pros and cons, and believes the pros weigh heavier for them, then a beautifully installed tankless water heater they shall have.

There is a luxury to having endless hot water and gaining square footage in your home. If a client is willing to pay for that luxury, then so be it.

if they want one , they want one... and that is fine with me
just like it states on my web site.....
as long as they go into it with eyes wide open knowing what
they are getting themselves into , then its ok.......:eek:

http://weilhammerplumbing.com/houseofhorrors/

.I would rather be looked upon as a fool than a
snake oil salesman or a Freije saltless softener salesman...

I see the the end of the road for them
unless Obama decides to extend the tax credits....
I was around back in 1986 when they ended the solar
tax credits and I watched a lot of places fold up and blow away
I will be willing to bet $$$ it will go down about
the same all over again this time....
you can deny that the crap is gonna hit the fan all you want
but their is a very strong possiblity it will happen..

I will probably pass it on to 3pk or anyone else willing to
give me a finders fee of 150 bucks .....
then its their problem:thumbup:...
 
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