Plumbing Zone - Professional Plumbers Forum banner

Rotting copper drain lines

33K views 181 replies 43 participants last post by  Master Mark 
#1 ·
We are beginning to hit a rash of rotting copper drain lines in ceilings lately.... lots of them....

. the leaks seems to always ocur between brass fittings in the short copper nipples.

We are getting mostly god awful messess in tight ceilings that the customer just wants a temporary seal rigged up to it... instead of literally tearing out the whole plumbing system.....


Basically a fernco clamp cut longways then wrapped on the pipe from brass to brass works with a lot of silicone..,,,,it seems to last 15 years or more

its like they are all starting to pit all at once throughout the city... most of it is about 1964-70 age

is anyone else running into this lately or is it just my turn???
 
#6 ·
Fix and repair are two different animals. I'm certain we would all love to fix problems professionally! Unfortunately we all encounter situations where the client can't afford the "fix". Today's "repair" will buy lots of goodwill, so that, at such time as the client can afford the "fix", we are their go-to plumber. It's awefully easy to cast judgement from the bleachers. It's a little different when yer actually in that particular game. Just my couple pennies worth.
 
#8 ·
Basically a fernco clamp cut longways then wrapped on the pipe from brass to brass works with a lot of silicone..,,,,it seems to last 15 years or more[/


Hell yea,done this repair many times,with some of these tightwad people you have to do what you can to fix a leak and still get paid,if that was a flat rate job what would these guys quote it at???2000.00????
 
#10 ·
A temporary fix at the best.

Signature on invoice acknowledging what needs to be done and that they are turning down the advice.

I have a fairly good track record for selling replacement when copper drains fail. Nice bit of bonus funds from the recycling.
 
#14 ·
I want his job, 300-500$ to split a fernco and tighten 2 clamps. The customer gets their money's worth out of that repair

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone
Hey, no way....... you cant have my job....:no:
Remember first you got to find the leak, then cut out the ceiling, ect ect...it is just not clamping on a fernco in an open basement on most of these jobs.....


I just did a full day repair on a mess up in a ceiling.....
cut out a copper tub line and lav line going the wrong way full of 50 year old sludge...
.... had to re-route the whole drain line in pvc over to a stack in their laundry room...

and it was a god awful mess... and I should have done a U-tube video...but the cursing would have had to be deleted.....

when they got the bill they told me I was too cheap.....

They are paying you for your knowledge of how to get them out of a leaking disaster dripping down on their kitchen floring from the bathroom group upstairs...tonight.... and they got folks comming for Thanks Giving next week ......do you get it???

They dont want to hear a sales pitch about how they are gonna have to tear down the kitchen ceiling and cut out all their 3 inch copper lines to both bathrooms, just cause its beginning to pit....
and you claim that this is the only way you will help them out...

IF YOU can do the Fernco repair trick for a temporary fix ... Then you are certainly their HERO...


I wish I could post some pics of a few nightmares I have stumbled onto so you could understand and get a better grasp of the situation

 
#16 ·
Master Mark said:
Hey, no way....... you cant have my job....:no: Remember first you got to find the leak, then cut out the ceiling, ect ect...it is just not clamping on a fernco in an open basement on most of these jobs..... I just did a full day repair on a mess up in a ceiling..... cut out a copper tub line and lav line going the wrong way full of 50 year old sludge... .... had to re-route the whole drain line in pvc over to a stack in their laundry room... and it was a god awful mess... and I should have done a U-tube video...but the cursing would have had to be deleted..... when they got the bill they told me I was too cheap..... They are paying you for your knowledge of how to get them out of a leaking disaster dripping down on their kitchen floring from the bathroom group upstairs...tonight.... and they got folks comming for Thanks Giving next week ......do you get it??? They dont want to hear a sales pitch about how they are gonna have to tear down the kitchen ceiling and cut out all their 3 inch copper lines to both bathrooms, just cause its beginning to pit.... and you claim that this is the only way you will help them out... IF YOU can do the Fernco repair trick for a temporary fix ... Then you are certainly their HERO... I wish I could post some pics of a few nightmares I have stumbled onto so you could understand and get a better grasp of the situation
Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone
 
#17 ·
Master Mark said:
Hey, no way....... you cant have my job....:no: Remember first you got to find the leak, then cut out the ceiling, ect ect...it is just not clamping on a fernco in an open basement on most of these jobs..... I just did a full day repair on a mess up in a ceiling..... cut out a copper tub line and lav line going the wrong way full of 50 year old sludge... .... had to re-route the whole drain line in pvc over to a stack in their laundry room... and it was a god awful mess... and I should have done a U-tube video...but the cursing would have had to be deleted..... when they got the bill they told me I was too cheap..... They are paying you for your knowledge of how to get them out of a leaking disaster dripping down on their kitchen floring from the bathroom group upstairs...tonight.... and they got folks comming for Thanks Giving next week ......do you get it??? They dont want to hear a sales pitch about how they are gonna have to tear down the kitchen ceiling and cut out all their 3 inch copper lines to both bathrooms, just cause its beginning to pit.... and you claim that this is the only way you will help them out... IF YOU can do the Fernco repair trick for a temporary fix ... Then you are certainly their HERO... I wish I could post some pics of a few nightmares I have stumbled onto so you could understand and get a better grasp of the situation
The key word for this whole topic is temporary. The repairs you spoke about before sound permanent.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone
 
#18 ·
It isn't the customer who knows this hack repair exists... It's you the "professional" who is offering it as an option.

A bad peice of 3" dwv copper between two brass fittings doesn't sound like a huge deal that would take thousands and thousands of dollars to fix. Even if I had to replace both closet sweeps and the joining double San tee it wouldn't be that much. Maybe a 6 hour job max. That wouldn't be a reason to replace all the dwv copper in the home. I don't wanna sit and wait and wonder if one of my jobs will be a call back. I want to feel confidant in my work or I don't do it.
 
#19 ·
It isn't the customer who knows this hack repair exists... It's you the "professional" who is offering it as an option.

A bad piece of 3" dwv copper between two brass fittings doesn't sound like a huge deal that would take thousands and thousands of dollars to fix. Even if I had to replace both closet sweeps and the joining double San tee it wouldn't be that much. Maybe a 6 hour job max. That would be a reason to replace all the dwv copper in the home.
Yes as soon as you touch it and start cutting each succeeding piece is going to leak as well, it is all tissue paper thin and just waiting for something to disturb it to start leaking plus when you have so many fittings jammed together no telling how much you might have to cut out to get to a place you can splice back into :cry:
 
#22 ·
I have had to "fix" a pinhole in copper domestic water piping on a well system. Go to use my cutters and it was like trying to cut a soda can. Advise HO they need a re-pipe. I can't afford that! I just want the leak fixed. As long as I have the sign-off on my invoice I sleep fine at night. I'm not here to dictate someone else's finances. I come in to resolve an issue and advise of necessary repairs. And before anyone gets all worked up, there are exceptions & exclusions to everything. I would never personally leave a home with a life threatening condition. I would, however, advise the HO of my obligation to report such things to the AHJ!
 
#23 ·
Bill, I find that a lot of kids just pour partially drank sodas down the kitchen drain & don't run any water to flush the line. If that soda will clean a penny, guess what it's doing to the copper branch line.
 
#24 ·
Basically a fernco clamp cut longways then wrapped on the pipe from brass to brass works with a lot of silicone..,,,,it seems to last 15 years or more




IF YOU can do the Fernco repair trick for a temporary fix ... Then you are certainly their HERO...
I guess if 15+ years is your definition of temporary...
Sounds more like you are back tracking and trying to justify being a hack to me.
Rubber and a couple clamps sound good at 10pm on a Saturday until you can get back there on Monday with the correct parts to fix the problem correctly.
Last time I checked, rubber silicone and hose clamps were not listed in the approved materials section of the code book for DWV copper.
If you're so worried about disturbing the rest of the system when you cut out the rotted section why not cut it out with tin snips then unsweat it out of the cast brass fitting?
 
#26 ·
I guess if 15+ years is your definition of temporary...
Sounds more like you are back tracking and trying to justify being a hack to me.
Rubber and a couple clamps sound good at 10pm on a Saturday until you can get back there on Monday with the correct parts to fix the problem correctly.
Last time I checked, rubber silicone and hose clamps were not listed in the approved materials section of the code book for DWV copper.
If you're so worried about disturbing the rest of the system when you cut out the rotted section why not cut it out with tin snips then unsweat it out of the cast brass fitting?

Thank you, I really enjoyed reading your post...

I would love to see you cut out a one inch section of 3 inch copper soldered in between a 3inch brass why and
a 3 inch tee..... with a pair of tin snips while standing on a 6 foot ladder.....in the kitchen or living room of someones home with toilet water pissing down on you....:laughing::thumbup: yea buddy......

you really dont got a clue of what you are talking about do you??? PLEASE do a U-tube video so I can watch. and learn how to do that:laughing::laughing::laughing:....

My repair in my own home has lasted 15 years...
What the customer decides to do after I make the temp repair is totally their decision... and I give the a price to do the complete overhaul of the system....$$$$

Do you realize what cutting out a ton of brass fittings
going to a couple of back to back bathrooms on a second floor of a 1965 home usually means?? In most cases, you might as well tear out both of the bathrooms and remodel ..start over

I tell them its temporary and I have bought them some time......but eventually they will have to do the major expensive repairs..... and of course they have the right to get other estimates....or kick the can down the road..

------------------------------------------------------------
update

The person that I just did the repairs on I told him that he would need to tear out his whole laundry room ceiling so we could get access to all the rotten copper....and we would change it all out to PVC.....

instead of making the repairs, he got a drywall man and patched all the holes I had to cut and cleaned it all up,,, and he painted the copper pipe with epoxy at a joint that was visible...

he bought a new house this week and there is a for sale sign in his front yard...:blink::blink:




 
#28 ·
I've only seen one person unsweat a dwv copper fitting that was over 20 years old.

He actually threw up after.

Honestly if you use enough sillycone and the clamps are in the right spot, the REPAIR will last longer than the rest of the system.

If the money isn't there, it isn't there.

Unless you want to finance the job lol
I've never had a problem unsweating DWV of any age. Not sure what else to say about it. It's not hard or even all that tricky to do.

I've seen people use metal tape to patch over holes of water heater flues. I've seen people patch leaks in water lines with epoxy. I've also seen repairs to copper drain lines done with rubber and hose clamps. Where do you draw the hack line in the sand? Someone mentioned safety before. Whose to say that the hack repair won't still have a small leak in it? Who's to say that small leak won't cause black mold that will cause the people in the building to get sick? Because guess what, I've seen that happen too.
Personally, I'll do it right or not at all.
If the money isn't there, neither am I. I'm not running a charity here. If they don't have the money to pay for the fix, they don't get it. Not from me anyway. I'm not going to waste my time and effort to hack something in just to make a quick buck when there are plenty of other people out there willing to pay to have things done correctly. The people that don't have the money or are too cheap to part with it can call the handy man and get what they pay for. I've invested too much time, energy and money into what I do to hack it in because it's faster or easier or cheaper. If you want to waste your time with these people then by all means, have at it. I have too much respect for myself and what I do for that.
 
#41 ·
No Plastic Hubs have a larger OD than Copper...
In addition we have to use a shielded coupling to avoid misalignments...
Still he split it lengthwise to place it over the pipe without cutting the pipe...;)
 
#42 ·
Alteration of fitting is not approved in any code I am aware of.

In Illinois you must use a shielded coupling and approved raised bead adapter when transitioning, Plain Fernco's are not approved within a foundation.

Tear it out and fix it right, with a code approved transition.

DUN.......
 
#44 ·
On second thought what needs to meet code? you can put anything you want on the outside of a pipe. you are not cutting the pipe or replacing it? is it illeagal to put hose clamps around a drain pipe. is it illegal to put silicone on a drain pipe or a rubber gasket for that matter.

I could be wrong, I lost my code book not long after I stopped doing new construction.

after all these years this is what I want to look up.
 
Top