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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Check out these photo's and let me know what you think?

The top one is a piece of Viega with stainless steel ring crimp. Note the internal ridge where the copper meets the pex. Also note that the passageway is only slightly larger than a pencil. \

Good? Now go check your code under acceptable fittings. Hmmmmm.

bottom one is a piece of 3/4" heat pex with about a 1" split in it. It was about 2' from copper fin tube base (it also froze and broke) So much for Pex won't freeze and break.
 

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Check out these photo's and let me know what you think?

The top one is a piece of Viega with stainless steel ring crimp. Note the internal ridge where the copper meets the pex. Also note that the passageway is only slightly larger than a pencil. \

Good? Now go check your code under acceptable fittings. Hmmmmm.

bottom one is a piece of 3/4" heat pex with about a 1" split in it. It was about 2' from copper fin tube base (it also froze and broke) So much for Pex won't freeze and break.

Send the picture to the pipe manufacturer and se what they have to say, I'd be interested in there comments.
 
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I use Viega pex with bronze fittings. That top picture does not look like any Viega fitting I've ever used. Would you turn it over so we can see the crimp ring and the fitting better, thanks.
 

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Also I don't think that fitting is being used with a Viega stainless steel sleeve either. And in that case I don't even know if it's Viega pipe at all! LOL
No offense NH but why say it's Viega?
 

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Discussion Starter #9
The pipe and ring are Viega. I believe the fitting is a
Souix Chief. Either way the manufacturer is not the issue as Watts fittings also have the same inner ledge problem. The pex pipe itself matters not either as all 1/2" pex has the same inner dimension. The excercize here is to note the restrictive nature of the fitting and the code of the text. So for all you'se guys in love with your particular brand o pex this is not ment to be a forum on type as much as process.
 

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I think we discussed this before nhmaster didn't we? In my opinion even though there might be a very slight ledge I doubt it makes any difference. I've installed thousands of feet of Viega pex and have never had a complaint concerning lower flow etc. I seriously doubt it's an issue but I do agree with you there is a slight ledge and that the opening is smaller. You just have to remember to pipe it correctly in conjunction with the job.
 

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The ledge acts like a burr or restriction causing velocity problems and ultimately corrosion of the fitting and the first foot or so of tubing.

When I was younger, I never paid much attention to these kinds of things, but now I always try to determine the cause of a tubing failure. A decent amount of the failures occured within a foot or so of a fitting.....tubing not reamed out....hmmmmm I wonder?:)

I'm not saying that I don't forget to de burr my tubing now and again, but it sure made me try to remember!!
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I think we discussed this before nhmaster didn't we? In my opinion even though there might be a very slight ledge I doubt it makes any difference. I've installed thousands of feet of Viega pex and have never had a complaint concerning lower flow etc. I seriously doubt it's an issue but I do agree with you there is a slight ledge and that the opening is smaller. You just have to remember to pipe it correctly in conjunction with the job.
Absoutly correct. undersizing is (and probably will continue to be) a problem as homeowners and some plumbers also try to make a size for size switch. Honestly, I've never had problems either, but I do see the winds of change a blowing so to speak as the lawyers begin to line up looking for another payoff. I fully expect to see every pex manufacturer including Uponor cited in class action lawsuits within 5 years.
 

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Absoutly correct. undersizing is (and probably will continue to be) a problem as homeowners and some plumbers also try to make a size for size switch. Honestly, I've never had problems either, but I do see the winds of change a blowing so to speak as the lawyers begin to line up looking for another payoff. I fully expect to see every pex manufacturer including Uponor cited in class action lawsuits within 5 years.



I've been one of the diehards speaking against this product, heavily on plbg.com years ago when I was moderating there. All the warning signs certainly was pointing out to issues relating to the move, and sure enough,

SPOT ON with all the problems, the lawsuits, the class actions.

It's all in the family though; dip tubes, PB, BLUE MAX, KITEC, ZURN.

Funny how plumbers are moving from one product to the next, "I like this one! It's the bestest! No...now I like this one, its the bestest too!

Rehau just shut down all thier production...and I've heard countless plumbers praise that product...now they are GONE.

People are running out of plastic pipe, literally on these. In about 10-15 years I'm going to be the guy sharkbiting all this garbage together and running like hell with the money, thinking shame shame shame for saving a buck.


:no:
 

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Well the majority of plumbing companies love pex and millions of feet of it have been installed in this country for heating and plumbing. Overseas Viega and the wirsbo are proven players for years. I have yet to read about any major melt downs. Sure there are the lawsuits and idiots out there mixing brands causing problems. Faulty brass etc. But we have the same in the copper and other plastic industries too, it's not just pex.
I Know there are a lot of folks out there that are die hard copper installers and that's great, have no problem with it. Myself I have chosen pex and will continue using it. I like it better, my customers like it better. But I don't think anyone is saving a buck using it. Viega pex fittings are very expensive and when you do a cost comparison between a copper job and a viega pex job it comes out very close to the same for materials. I charge the same for pex as I would for copper. The advantage is that I get it done in half the time. I disagree about the future, I believe the future is pex.;-)
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Like most people we tend to get sold on a product or process and then put our heads in the sand. I for one was guilty of climbing on the poly-butylene wagon and rode the damn thing right up to the gates of hell. Only years later did I finally see my folly.

Problems that no one wants to talk about, Chlorene seriously degrades all types of pex. Manufacturers coat the pipe with an inhibitor but it eventually wears off.

Many of the de-zincification problems are greatly exaserbated by the turbulant flow through undersized and ledged fittings.

Though it seems a bit out there, rats and rodents do like to chew on the stuff.

UV radiation has always been a problem though aluma-pex solves that issue.

However all this aside, My issue (because I am a code re-certification instructor) is with the restrictive nature of the fittings. The IPC and UPC are both very clear on the subject and state that there can be no interior ledges or obstructions to flow, nor narrowing of the fitting. I am sure you have all seen the brass elbows that essentially have two small holes drilled through to meet at a sharp 90 degree angle. Both restrictive and turbulent. Now, yes you can theoretically up size the pipe to handle the problem, but the codes make no provision for up-sizing. It does not say that you can use ledge and or restrictive fittings if you up size the pipe. There is plenty of material there for any code inspector to fail the job and some in my area are doing just that.
 

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From the Minnesota code book:
"Cross-linked polyethylene (PEX) tubing 6M with fittings 6N or 6O shall be certified by an independent third-party certifier. The water distribution system shall be installed by a factory-trained installer in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions. Tubing and fittings must be marked with the appropriate ASTM designations by the manufacturer."

My customers are happy, I'm happy. My inspector is happy too! It's code approved and I'm using it. I guess I'm just not as concerned about "possible" problems as you are.
In all actuality I could make most of the same arguments about copper and brass, pipe and fittings. I'm sure the old old timers had the same arguments about copper and pvc too when switching from cast iron and galvanized piping. Plumbing is an ever changing and evolving field, some things work out and some don't. Just the way it is I guess and that's what I love about this business, never a dull moment! night
 

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Not to be contrary or anything but the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. Gather up all the pex failures you come across in the next year and I will gather up all the copper failures I come across in the next year and at the end of the year we will see who's bucket is the most full. I can tell you as a one man repair shop I will probably fill a 55 gal drum full of copper that is split, pitted, leaking fittings, etc. I have yet to have to make a pex repair anywhere.
 

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That's odd,


Search engine yields only one class action lawsuit against copper. A rather limited problem I see.

But when we speak about pex, the doors open to a long lengthy trail.


You would think the words Kitec were a common word by now, guess not.

Maybe Zurn is hiding?


NHMaster loves a good debate. :thumbsup:
 
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