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How "Easy" Do you want the Profession of Plumbing to Become?

13K views 70 replies 29 participants last post by  Eric 
#1 ·
There's a loaded question that has a million meanings, and given the thread starter's point of view, I'm sure it doesn't need much explanation.



Should we all think we're plumbers since we can push-fit, crimp, glue-connect everything that we don't need a license anymore?


Remember, someone has designed plumbing where DIY'rs can easily do our job now, and how can you complain when they do it at this point? It literally is at the point now where we might just be in the same category as drywallers, painters. Not many tools needed.
 
#3 ·
Now now, let's not be hastey.


Please tell me why tomorrow when I install a RO system that all I need is a screwdriver, drill bit, and a crescent wrench.

That system underneath that sink will be sloppy looking just like every one of them is made to be.


I can be a professional paper thrower for the local newspaper, but I'm performing my trade just like the next guy.


Truth is, everything I've stated is true, it's not fiction.


Years ago homeowners didn't set up threading tools and cut galvanized water lines for themselves, fix their water lines.

Now, they sharkbite and run with their legal garden hose. :no:


I like plumbing when it's hard, like my arteries to my heart. I like it when less people can do my job.
 
#4 ·
Damn, I was hoping this was about how to line up and drill perfect holes in masonry or an easier way to do superman work. ya know, in an attic up against the roof pitch stuffed inbetween the damn roofers nails and dirty fiberglass insulation sweating that 90 on above the plate. For what it's worth, I charge an obsurd amount of money to do that. i didn't when I first got on my own, but now...I know how to do it...time to cash in on it.

Get this....I bid a tankless and as I show up I see another guy leaving. i know the guy and he buys shark bites by the case...no ***** I seen him carrying them out.

So I go look at the place...give my 02 and type up a bid. This is the funny part. under the scope of work section i make a little side note giving very brief detail of push on connectors and how box stores sell them and they are legal in CA for in wall use. Long story short i told the client that the guy b4 me won't solder anymore and only uses SB...which is 100% truth. Sent it off that night, checked email in the morning...and I got it. But I did include in a term "I will in under no circumstances use any kind of push on connecting device...blah blah..."

It was a first for me to mention anything like this in a bid...I have a feeling I may stick with it.
 
#5 ·
That's a good logic to follow as well.


Everything I'm doing on this RO system is indeed a lowered pressure, like 40 pounds but I can't stand that everything is so eaaaaaazy peeaaaaazy japaneeezy under the sink.


Red tube goes here
Blue tube goes there
Yellow tube goes there
Black tube has to go there

Turn the water on, I gotta run!


Does everyone know why the only reason RO systems are not installed by the homeowner most times? They don't know or want to drill that crucial first step, the hole in the sink for the faucet.

Mine tomorrow is on a high end corian top. I figure I'm going to have to buy one of those carbide round hole saw bits to get through corian. I got a step drill bit but it'll dull it completely.

If that hole already existed? Homeowner would be putting this in, not me. That's why the system is already there.


Look at the new stainless steel flex supply line....my grandma could replace her toilet supply with the ease of that installation practice. At least with the chrome risers, you had to know which end to connect first. ????
 
#6 ·
While it is true that all of these newer materials are easy to install, we all know that the correct sizing calculations for gpm, velocity, and pressure (in the case of pex) is not something a homeowner cares about.

It's also said that PVC is just gluing pipes together. That's all well and good, but what about DFU loads, venting principles and correct termination and too many other things to mention.

My long drawn out point is that we as professionals have to design,engineer, install and maintain these systems, regardless of materials. All while making it into a work of art.

Find a drywaller that says that!!!
 
#9 ·
Its going to become a NON license thing in the future, well there will be a "corporation" that holds the license and then 20k+ workers....

If you think I am bsing you, take a look around at HOW MANY small shops are being bought up by mr rooters and franchises,

Unless all you OLD MEN PLUMBERS start being NICE to the young , its all over....

Don't believe me?

Bookmark this thread and bump it in 5 years, :)

I know many people think I am just some stupid dude, But I am obsessed with this industry and have TONS of data on it,

The PROBLEM:

no seniors are trying to recruit and train young guys and that's FORCING big companies to make things like read and blue pex......DUH......

You better start training and LICENSING your guys ALL of them before Mr rooter and the boys take over.
 
#10 ·
We already got what you're saying. This big jobs down in Lexington and Louisville?

They hire a bunch of illegals to come in and "Plumb" yes plumb these buildings with pex piping like they are running wire, they get it done in super speed along with that flexible gas piping that's in the same category. SPEED


40 years ago the average joe did not go out and work on their plumbing, not to the extent they do today. That's a fact because they didn't have what exists in rubber couplings, push together piping systems.

Look at my license in Ohio; totally useless, has no value at this point because everyone sits under one license, contractor's license. You're grouped into all the trades and nobody is special. I like being special.
 
#11 ·
Yup, here to and in most places....

WHY do you think so many PLUMBERS are out of work?

The second to last shop I worked in employeed 10+ "illegals" and had them running pvc all day long at $75 a day and two guys would rough all the pvs from basement to attic in a 3bath in one day.

YUP all for $150........aND YEA he had a license,........doent mean he has to do the work.......

If the failed any inspection who cares, they would send the guy bak, I mean they were only paying them to run pvc not plumb.

And that the thing, if you stay current with trade magazones you'll see the trends as well.

Most A/C units now are being shipped with the freon in them....yup......just release a valve and the system is charged.......makes it so you dont need that HVAC guy.

If you think this will not become an automated industry just look around at all your buddies here on the forums and in real life and ask them where their job is.....

Yea, keep installing pex, keep not showing the young guys........
 
#12 ·
God bless you *******. I was at a Home Depot yesterday (not for plumbing stuff) and just happened to be walking down the plumbing aisle (to see if indeed they had pulled Zurn PEX - and yes they did, now have QESTPEX! - ACK!) At any rate, there was the ever helpful employee explaining to an older couple about the wonderful Shark Bite product that they can use to fix their problem. Man, I wanted SO BAD to butt in and SAY SOMETHING! Now that I've had awhile to think about it, I probably should have.
 
#16 ·
i may have enjoyed happy hour a bit too much tonight, but here it goes.
i don't give a rats ass how many time life books the average homeowner owns. and i don't care how many episodes of sweat equity get aired. and i surely don't fear the onslaught of john doe handyman. ive put my time in, and i have more lessons to learn. but i have spent too much of my life learning my vocation to worry if john q. dingleberry homeowner can go to blowes and buy a pex tool. yeah some of the tech has made some of the processes user friendly. but when push comes to shove, i'll be there. when the building valve won't shut off i'll be there. every time the average homeowner see's an episode of flip that house and gets geared up, and sticks thier uneducated foot in the preverbial bear trap, i'll be there. diy i hope is a fad. i have seen too much of it go south. we have a responsibity to the public to " protect the health of the nation". i try not to take too many things in life to heart. but that one i'll fight for.
 
#18 ·
[
quote=*******;27307]
If you think I am bsing you, take a look around at HOW MANY small shops are being bought up by mr rooters and franchises,
Some of the original owners are buying them back up after the franchises screw it up. It was in PM Magazine about 6 mos. ago.

Unless all you OLD MEN PLUMBERS start being NICE to the young , its all over....
In what way 'be nice.' Are todays young anymore fragile than the plumber apprentice of yesteryear?

The PROBLEM: no seniors are trying to recruit and train young guys
Bullsh*t! Young guys want to work in the A/C all day playing with computers and make six figures a year. It's not the recruitment, most young don't want to work in the trades.

and that's FORCING big companies to make things like read and blue pex......DUH......
I agree. Labor shortage has created the need for simpler installations.

You better start training and LICENSING your guys ALL of them before Mr rooter and the boys take over.
[/QUOTE]

Funny you mention Mr. Rooter, they have called our office no less than 20 times in the past 60 days and sent a letter. After asking to be put on the do not call list, another Mr. Rooter calls and I let him have it. I wouldn't be a Mr. Rooter if you paid me. Click! Another franchise ARS, they have at least 10-15 vans sitting idle everyday parked along the side of their building.

Have faith ******* - the old timers are learning the new tricks. Even my husband is willing to learn touchy/feely sales techniques to increase the bottom line. He knows when to give a pat on the back and when a swift kick in the pants is needed. Our guys respect him. Don't ever count those who came before you out - they are tough (and not all are hardheaded)!
 
#19 ·
No, I am not counted anyone out , but contrary to popular belief I really did work in many shops for over 17 years, and met some well respected people, and I really do have a clue, but acting the way I do and then watching grown men take aim at me and call me names is more amusing......and more fun, and starts better conversations with all these shy folks that usually troll till I come around :)

No young men are not more fragile nor was I when I was a kid, but when a foreman told me "you better cut that next pipe faster and straighter or I am going to shove it up your as s " then yea.

Listen, I know many people here, on Ridgid , just think I am some young moron that "fell out of the trade", fine, I could careless, what anyone thinks, But Let me tell you, I have been watching the industry falling apart day by day........thats the end result, and its just to bad..........

If you want we can compare data just to prove points...but we all know inside that this industry is NOT what it used to be , its overrun by laziness and cooperate greed.
 
#20 ·
I don't doubt your experience or love of the industry. You want change and you want it yesterday. So do a lot of us.

However, the way you (not literally you!) deal with people is different based on their age and experience.

Ex.: I'm guessing you're close to 35. You can hang with the 20 something crowd, but the 21 year old thinks your trying to hard to be cool.

The 30-40 crowd catch all your drifts and they are there with you dude.

The 50-60 crowd - they aren't necessarily appreciating the dude and buddy thing. They are a little put off.

If you are addressing the 40+ crowd and being pushy, this can be taken as a sign of disrespect. This group will push back and push back hard. If they are given respect, in time they will respect back. This generation believes elders are given respect and young people earn it.

Right now, you do know a lot. You track numbers, trends, read a lot etc.; however, you are young and will look back and realize you don't know as much as you thought you did. Every year, people like you get wiser and wiser. And one day you will be a wise older man. No short cuts, it takes years to acquire.

You have posted you have worked for some real SOBs. Not all old timers are this way. Many will give an apprentice the shirt off his back.
 
#21 ·
I don't doubt your experience or love of the industry. You want change and you want it yesterday. So do a lot of us.

However, the way you (not literally you!) deal with people is different based on their age and experience.

Ex.: I'm guessing you're close to 35. You can hang with the 20 something crowd, but the 21 year old thinks your trying to hard to be cool.

The 30-40 crowd catch all your drifts and they are there with you dude.

The 50-60 crowd - they aren't necessarily appreciating the dude and buddy thing. They are a little put off.

If you are addressing the 40+ crowd and being pushy, this can be taken as a sign of disrespect. This group will push back and push back hard. If they are given respect, in time they will respect back. This generation believes elders are given respect and young people earn it.

Right now, you do know a lot. You track numbers, trends, read a lot etc.; however, you are young and will look back and realize you don't know as much as you thought you did. Every year, people like you get wiser and wiser. And one day you will be a wise older man. No short cuts, it takes years to acquire.

You have posted you have worked for some real SOBs. Not all old timers are this way. Many will give an apprentice the shirt off his back.

That could not have been said any better. Figures a woman to do it......

And yes, apprentices today aren't worth a crap. Too busy ironing the bill of their ball cap totally flat.
 
#23 ·
Agreed, but how do I know who is who when people have no pictures or don't tell me there age?
Take NHMaster - He is old school plumber. Lots of pride and respects the trade. I wouldn't tell him copper is crap, PEX me Baby! For the record, I don't care for PEX.

Service Guy - I know he has a baby, likes fine wine, and uses a flat rate system. I wouldn't tell him to lower his rates to get business.

Illinois Plumber - I wouldn't tell him the Union sucks. He's union and it's working for him.

I could debate copper vs. PEX. Knowing NHMaster has paid his dues, I would be very careful in stating my opinion because I don't have his experience.

I could debate lower prices with Service Guy and can push harder because he is closer in age. He and I have batted things back and forth before, so he knows I am trying to help.

Illinois - If I thought the union sucked, knowing he likes it, I would try and understand why it means so much to him. I respect him, so if he finds the union worthwhile, I should listen and learn from what he has to say.

killertoilertspider last week. He was upset with my behavior towards him and he hinted in many threads that he wanted more respect and in turn I give him the respect he asked for and publicly apologized and all.
Can't speak for KTS, but my opinion. KTS is an intelligent plumber who is no BS and does not seek attention. Looks like a man's man. The public apology was over the top. KTS would have preferred a PM rather than a display.

BUT when we all act like a bunch of animals and attack each other with insults, its honestly hard to judge the real age and character of someone,
So, it gets heated sometimes. We all seem to make up and move on. Most of us are just as passionate about what we believe as you are about what you believe.

Plumbcrazy, failure is the root of success, your 110% right, in fact I can think of things I did an hour ago that I should not have, but we all make mistakes, the point is that we need to learn from them then grow.
:thumbsup:


Oh, I agree, I have also worked for some sweetheart old timers that called me "joey" "hey joey, do this" good times good times.
Our one plumber was our 'red headed stepchild' It was said with affection.

As for statistics -they can be manipulated. Believe what you witness with your eyes, not what someone writes or tells you. Seems like everytime I see statistics there is an agenda attached.
 
#24 ·
I was raised and painfully relearned as a yound adult this: In order to get respect, I need to give respect.

It's sort of the opposite of the saying...guys that talk as if they know it all know nothing. Know it all's get little respect...at least from me...hence my smart ass reply to the pex guru thread. But that's just me.

Ya gotta do two things to get respect from a guy like me'
1) give me respect.
2) be older than me.

If you're older than me I will respect you until you screw it up (I don't mean you personally).

This philosophy came to light in my mid 20's.
I was getting pissed that kids younger than me had no respect for me. Than the light bulb went off. I thought to mysef what must older people think about me?

Example....at the checkout at Target with my oldest daughter, we were getting Valentines Day cards (I hate V day) and a few other things. The little old lady behind the counter asked if I found everything ok, I promptly replied "Yes ma`am, thank you".

My kid looked up at me with a strange face. We had a nice chat about that on the drive home. Point in case.....maybe that old lady is a retired doctor or educator...maybe she has been a drug addict all her life and is just now able to hold a job...who knows? But it doesn't matter one bit to me. She has been here longer therefor by my laws she earned the respect.....of course...until she screws it up. .02
 
#29 ·
I was raised and painfully relearned as a yound adult this: In order to get respect, I need to give respect....
There's one thing I took away from my travels down south and that's respect. Show disrespect in SoCal and you will pay, one way or another. I got scars to prove it.

That's not to say I'm not a badass. Most plumbers have that odd mixture or intelligence and extremism...the ones who make it out of apprenticeship, anyway....:laughing:
 
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#25 ·
There is a real problem in the industry today. There are too many guys who work as drain cleaners for a while then they get called a tech by some big company that has a one in ten ratio of real plumbers and dumb labor. I have seen it too many times where the "tech" comes out and then has to call the "supervisor" out to help him. These guys are not learning much about plumbing but they are getting their hours in so they can be turned out. If anyone saw the recent survey Ridgid did of High School students you will see most of them want to get into computers. We are headed for a real shortage in trained tradesman and there will be no one to fill the positions. Whenever possible I try to help guys younger than me to learn what will become a lost art. I encourage all of you to get active with your Code groups and be involved in the process.

Mark
 
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#28 ·
Whenever possible I try to help guys younger than me to learn what will become a lost art. I encourage all of you to get active with your Code groups and be involved in the process.

Mark

And this is TRUE, and I will tell you that Mark is a good man, See when me and Mark had a few threads going we exchanged some ideas / words etc.

Then One day, Mark said to me "Joey lets talk" and we had a nice 2 hour phone chat and I learned who Mark was and now I have the "UT most" respect for Mark and I can tell you that he is a 1st class plumber, business owner and an all around great guy.

Mark "reached out" to me and showed me the light,....

I have also had many other phone conversations with other great people like Jerry Mac, Serviceguy, Rockstarplumber, Bill , Cal, and others and after we spoke I realized how important it was for me to respect them and now I do .

So yea, I am sorry if I piss some people off but pm me your number and lets talk,.....

I have no problem, "bowing down" to the seniors and the ones who are wise, BUT you need to show me your wise, just coming back at me in a forum threads doesn't prove you care about this industry or even me,

Anyone who wants to chat just pm me your phone number and we can chat, and I will respect you,

So lets talk,
 
#27 ·
Plumbing trade is still relatively new at least with running hot/cold water, working sewers, etc., on a large scale basis. We have houses here built in 1909 that didn't have house sewers.

Many people of all generations wouldn't consider doing plumbing if it was the last job in the world. Others aren't physically capable or smart enough. Others are too dishonest for a trade.

The illegals are our biggest problem. I won't support any company that uses them and I do turn them in.
 
#32 ·
Back on topic. Speed Kills. I see a couple trends in the profession and the industry that I find disturbing. One is the need for speed and the other is blind acceptance for new products. Granted when I started out there was not the kind of product development we see today nor were the materials and manufacturing processes as sophisticated. That aside, I think the younger generation is willing to jump into the pool without testing the water first. Whether or not that is an age thing or a result of advertising and marketing I can not say. Many of us that have been around awhile have seen the miracal products come and go. I hat to get caught up in new versus old debate because I for one would never want to go back to bell and spigot DWV piping though I could if I had too. So I tend to be a bit more cautious befor I get involved in new products or processes. As for the speed thing, that has always kind of bugged me. I hear journeymen bragging all the time that they can rough a house in two days. Great, so what are you going to do tomorrow? If you crunch the numbers, speed does not always translate into profit. I know time is money and to a great extent you can't afford to have a couple guys spend three weeks roughing the house either, but speed is not everything. Pex, PVC new tools and methods have greatly increased our job speed but at some point I think you need to be more concerned with the craft than with the speed. I would rather hear a journeyman say he took 4 days and everything was perfect and passed inspection.
 
#36 ·
I don't believe I said anything at all about using "out dated" materials. What I did say is that new materials and methods have changed the way we work.
I don't know how much chance you get to inspect other plumbers work and I understand that because you are no doubt busy doing your own. I however do get to see a whole lot of plumbing and heating installations and I am not happy with the majority of what I see. Indeed pex can be installed neatly but it rarely is. The general feeling is that since it's mostly burried and out of sigh, who gives a damn. But the sloppy work is by no means limited to pex. A good deal of the same "Can't see it from my house" mentality also applies to pvc (particualry underslab) and copper as well. I think most of the sloppy work is due to the "speed" factor but it may just be lack of education or a F-it attitude. Either way the profession can not stand the lowering of standards for quality work. I really don't care what you install, just make sure you do it right and it looks good.
 
#39 ·
Have any idea how many kids I see every damn day of the week tossing away an education? Out of a class of 18, I generally figure that four maybe five will actually do the work and get a decent grade. The rest just don't give a crap and half of them don't care enough to even show up. There is nothing in this entire world as valuable as knowledge. Knowledge is like being in a room with a billion doors, each door is open and each one of them leads to a billion other doors. When you close even one of those doors that path may very well be gone forever. The state of education in this country is sad.
 
#42 ·
The topic of my class is Sit down and shut up! :)

I teach CTE Plumbing and HVAC to high schools juniors and seniors as well as an introductory plumbing and small engine tech to all 4 years. I also teach the 1st and 2nd year state apprentice plumbing class, OSHA safety training and State plumbing license recertification seminars as well as several seminars on hydronic and steam heating for NAOSHM. Should also be doing oil burners for NORA pretty soon if they can get their crap together. However, up untill 5 years ago I was a working plumber and I still own a plumbing company though my brother and son pretty much run the day to day operations now. I got involved in teaching because I felt the need to somehow get more young people involved in the industry. membership in the apprentice program has been steadily waning over the past decade. The one bit of professional advice I would give to all of you is to get interested in and be involved in education and the trends within the industry. Show up to plumbers board meetings and take responsibility for your trade before the politicians and industry whores sell us all down the drain. If that sounds holier than thou then I apologize, but I am passionate about the need for licensed plumbers to be involved. When we let things slip the bastards start passing laws and codes that may well impact our livelyhoods and when it's too late all we can do is sit back and ***** about it. Apathy is the reason my state passed the dumbest gas licensing law immaginable, requiring no less than 5 separate licenses to work on gas piping or appliances. When the bill came up for a vote, there was no one there to stop it.
 
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