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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I went to a house where to VERY friendly guys wanted stops installed at all the toilets as they had a 1991 manabloc polybutylene home. They wanted a way to shut the toilets off without having to go to the main panel. I asked them if they were the original owners and they said yes. “Any leaks?”. “No.” so we have a 18 year old system without any problems. The fittings were al brass with the exception of the panel it self. If a poly system will last 18+ years then I think it’s safe to say the pex will be fine to.
 

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With the way we have seen new construction plumbers (mostly illegals) install PEX, doubt it will last ten years! It's cheap so it will continued to be used, but we all pay for it in our homeowner's insurance premiums.
 

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Plumber, Totally
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With the way we have seen new construction plumbers (mostly illegals) install PEX, doubt it will last ten years! It's cheap so it will continued to be used, but we all pay for it in our homeowner's insurance premiums.

so, just so I understand, the immigration status of the installer effects the warranty of the product? PEX won't last ten years because of this? or are you saying there are kinks, bad crimps, no expansion joints, and other poor techniques due to poor training? Does one's immigration status indicate weather or not they do good work?
FOR THE RECORD: I am in no way advocating the use of illegal immigrants for anything! The word illegal means illegal! I have never used 'em, never will. Plumbcrazy, I was pretty shocked to read this post. You are better than that. Illegals are here and some contractors insist on using them. If you choose to not use them, it's your right. Why throw the baby out with the bathwater in this way?

my 2 cents.

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so, just so I understand, the immigration status of the installer effects the warranty of the product?
Sometimes I summarize to a fault because my mind connects the dots very quickly. My thought process goes something like this. Builders who are willing to break and bend the rules (hiring illegals) do it to save money. Typically they hire the cheapest subcontractors out there. The subs and their employees care very little about the overall project because they are basically working for next to nothing. Builders who break the rules do it to help their profit margins. It's certainly not to deliver quality to the end user. How well (& long) a product lasts is directly related to the installation and the integrity of the company who stands behind it. As for immigration status - YES - indirectly this does affect longevity. If you own a home in a community and your family has ties to a community, your reputation and ability to keep a job to support your family is tied to your work performance. If you own nothing and are willing to relocate at the drop of a dime - reputation and quality doesn't matter. Illegals are known to migrate from place to place and the builders that hire them don't check references. There is a higher accountability when you are an American.

PEX won't last ten years because of this? or are you saying there are kinks, bad crimps, no expansion joints, and other poor techniques due to poor training?
My opinion is based on exactly what you wrote.

Does one's immigration status indicate weather or not they do good work?
Indirectly yes! History has proven as humans we behave and perform better when there is accountability.

FOR THE RECORD: I am in no way advocating the use of illegal immigrants for anything!
I am not against anyone earning a living. However, using poorly trained illegals (or ANYONE poorly trained for that matter) in construction affects our industry.

Plumbcrazy, I was pretty shocked to read this post. You are better than that.
Rereading my post, I don't see what is so shocking. Everyone here has seen shoddy, new construction work. If adding that illegals are performing a lot of the shoddy work bothers you, then I am surprised. Reality is that a lot of new construction utilizes illegals - reality is a lot of new construction is shoddy. That's my conclusion and only my opinion.

Illegals are here and some contractors insist on using them. If you choose to not use them, it's your right.
It is not only my right, it is my civic duty. It is my loyalty to my country. I'm not selling out my country, but I am starting to feel like it is selling me out.

PEX properly installed and utilizing quality materials and labor appears to be a good system. That said, since a lot of the fittings and such are coming from China, where we all know quality control is less than here in America - I wouldn't bet on it! Somewhere on this forum was a post about Zurn ? PEX fittings failing - possible cause was the quality of brass used.

I miss the old America! Quality is a thing of the past and too many sit idly by and watch it go. It seems as though people have forgotten what value means.
 

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Hey pro is that a poly to pex adapter in the 5th pick down? Didn't know they existed. Back in the early 90's I put in a lot of polybutelene when I worked for my brother in law on cape cod, was popular with this one builder. I've been meaning to ask him how they are holding up. It was always brass fittings with copper crimp rings.
 

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Plumber, Totally
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Plumbcrazy,
I don't disagree with many of your points. The logic used in your 2nd post is more of what I'm used to from you. The first one was loaded with assumptions, heresay and rhetoric. I'm expect you to be the "voice of reason" on this forum, and you usually are just that. I was merely surprised at the tone of the first one, though.

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Plumbcrazy,
I don't disagree with many of your points. The logic used in your 2nd post is more of what I'm used to from you. The first one was loaded with assumptions, heresay and rhetoric. I'm expect you to be the "voice of reason" on this forum, and you usually are just that. I was merely surprised at the tone of the first one, though.

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Man ,, you got a pair on you !!! Questioning Herself ?? My head hurt just reading the first few paragraphs of response :eek:
:laughing::laughing:
 

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My initial tone was a little harsh. In my defense, I just received my homeowner's insurance bill and it went up again.

Due to shoddy plumbing in new construction and homeowners willing to use handymen, the water restoration companies that are tied in with the insurance companies are raking in small fortunes and we are all paying the price.

Sometimes it feels like we are fighting an uphill battle and losing ground when it comes to professional plumbing and that is really the source of my frustration.
 

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I aint CPV see in it?
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Manablocs (cirlce R) are cool. BUT, i hate installing them. PITA. when you do 48 of them in 3 months, you kinda lose your taste for them. But, if i ever built a new home for me, i would use a manabloc. My house would be an offgrade though, id run all the lines under the house. I am a believer in pex. I use it all the time. Just did a custom shower with 6 body sprays, a handheld, two regular shower heads, and one rain head in the ceiling. One tempature control vavle, 5 volume control knobs. All pex.
 

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You're calling 18 years proof of longevity?

Let me know when it catches up with the Carbon and Carbide building on Michigan Ave, it has 27 floors worth of water pipe risers that are over a hundred years old, as does the Wrigley building on the other side of the river, and the water pipe in those buildings will not burn.
 

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Okay, I'm gonna try to be nice, and I'm going to be "reasonable"....at least till ironranger comes in here defending his tried and true.


Protech, for the record, did you put that piping together below in the picture? Everyone is up for criticism when they post; I've had my share and sure enough, I taketh, I giveth.


If someone wants to ball bust me on sharkbites, I'm cool with that. At least there is no "plastic" involved other than the piping I'm having to contend with.


If I was a homeowner and you installed that group of fittings, knowing that the connection exists because of personal preference to a brand you're using,

I'd have you come over every week to mop that floor in and around that piping, because what you've created is a potential leak point because all the years before you changed that piping, it was possible to mop, move stuff around that connection. Not no more.

You've installed 4 points of possible leaking instead of just 1 where it connects.

You cannot "group" polybutylene with PEX. They are two different families of plastic piping systems. You're comparing one solo house that has no problems to the deafening roar of all the people who have had problems with this piping, and it's in the millions in damage as a result.


Why wasn't a pex riser used instead of a flex stainless steel supply, to at least "strengthen" that potential connection from leaking?


First hit with the mop and it's going to break/leak/rupture. It's going to be an accident, and I surely hope you don't throw a rebuttal stating that they should now stop mopping their floor around their toilet.

Between your thread and mine, can you all see the resemblance of how **** up this **** really is?


We aren't plumbers anymore because the word "plumb" means level, accurate, straight. There is nothing in the equation of plastic piping systems that equates to that notion.

We've all turned into garden hose installers, that's about it. Mexicans? They have their place:


"Yo Pedro, you matcha red to red, blue to blue and make fast through the wood."

Running waters for a mobile home is done in the exact same way. No difference, crimp and run.

Don't worry, it's here to stay...but I'm going to make money off this stuff and I never have to install it to say that. I'm now the voice of the victims as we cannot have so much praise that is giving problems to so many victims across the states.

If you're going to deny that, or anyone for that matter, you've just lowered your platform and raised mine.


Roast "Letting the steak burn on the grill intentionally" Duck :laughing:






 

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Put me down as agreeing with the duck on this...
That's some ****** up ****. :whistling2:

Nothing ruins my day worse than running into a leaking polybutylene line on a manabloc that won't shut off. Freakin Junk!

Home running is for people that don't know how to size pipe.:yes:

I like to run trunk and branch with remote manifolds.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Ok, here's the deal duck. It’s 9:46pm and I'm just now walking in the door. I'm gonna go spend some time with my girl so I'm not going to unload on you tonight as I just don't have the time..........but tomorrow morning it's on boy!

I'll leave you with one question until morning: How would you have done it?

Okay, I'm gonna try to be nice, and I'm going to be "reasonable"....at least till ironranger comes in here defending his tried and true.


Protech, for the record, did you put that piping together below in the picture? Everyone is up for criticism when they post; I've had my share and sure enough, I taketh, I giveth.


If someone wants to ball bust me on sharkbites, I'm cool with that. At least there is no "plastic" involved other than the piping I'm having to contend with.


If I was a homeowner and you installed that group of fittings, knowing that the connection exists because of personal preference to a brand you're using,

I'd have you come over every week to mop that floor in and around that piping, because what you've created is a potential leak point because all the years before you changed that piping, it was possible to mop, move stuff around that connection. Not no more.

You've installed 4 points of possible leaking instead of just 1 where it connects.

You cannot "group" polybutylene with PEX. They are two different families of plastic piping systems. You're comparing one solo house that has no problems to the deafening roar of all the people who have had problems with this piping, and it's in the millions in damage as a result.


Why wasn't a pex riser used instead of a flex stainless steel supply, to at least "strengthen" that potential connection from leaking?


First hit with the mop and it's going to break/leak/rupture. It's going to be an accident, and I surely hope you don't throw a rebuttal stating that they should now stop mopping their floor around their toilet.

Between your thread and mine, can you all see the resemblance of how **** up this **** really is?


We aren't plumbers anymore because the word "plumb" means level, accurate, straight. There is nothing in the equation of plastic piping systems that equates to that notion.

We've all turned into garden hose installers, that's about it. Mexicans? They have their place:


"Yo Pedro, you matcha red to red, blue to blue and make fast through the wood."

Running waters for a mobile home is done in the exact same way. No difference, crimp and run.

Don't worry, it's here to stay...but I'm going to make money off this stuff and I never have to install it to say that. I'm now the voice of the victims as we cannot have so much praise that is giving problems to so many victims across the states.

If you're going to deny that, or anyone for that matter, you've just lowered your platform and raised mine.


Roast "Letting the steak burn on the grill intentionally" Duck :laughing:






 

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Duck, I believe the 'plumb' in plumber comes from the Latin word 'plumbum' which means 'lead'. Not busting your balls though:no:


Damn you! You hit me with your big fish!


Okay......let me paraphrase or dig myself a deeper hole:


When you plumb a house, do we intentionally put in crooked piping systems? Or do we take careful attention to proper installation, being proud of our work and considering our craft, artwork.

We've went from hard and rigid to soft and bending, and there's no blue pill to fix this.

When I call out to another plumber when running my stacks from basement to rooftop, I ask, "Is it plumb?" Meaning straight, tight, level.

There was a good reason why there was a groove in those torpedo levels on one side of the tool, it was for copper piping systems that you jig up and pull measurements when you piping was straight and you run with it.

If you've been doing it enough like you and me, we can set the torpedo level aside and eyeball it because years of sight gauging has earned that quality control feature.



Word History: A plumber works with water pipes, once made from lead, with lead solder for the joints. The Romans used lead pipes, and the word plumber comes from the Latin word for lead, plumbum. There is no Latin, or even Indo-European, etymology for plumbum but it bears a distant similarity to the Greek word for lead, the standard form of which, molubdos, gives us the name of another element in the Periodic Table, molybdenum. Two non-standard forms, molibos and especially bolimos, are even more similar to the Latin.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/plumber


No where is there mention of plastic flexible water piping in the above context.

But as I say, it's all here to stay. You all can choose to use what products you like, I'm cool with it. It shouldn't matter to anyone what I think is best, this is a free world to entertain the opinion you choose to follow, represent. I just can't turn a blind eye to a history of piping that in the past 25 years has surpassed a billion dollars in property damage claims, resorted to products that offer no benefit when discarded like the precious metal copper provides, and doesn't have a slew of disgruntled angry as hell mobs of people searching on the internet for answers of why I have water leaks all over my home.

To knock copper that worked for so long and then starts failing...who is at fault for that? Where is the MASSIVE copper class action lawsuits with tv cameras and 2am infomercials and lawyer ads stating you've been robbed by the manufacture to supply a product that did not live to expectation?

Keep in mind, there's always two sides to every story, and mine is just one of a million of those who are not plumbers, but victims of our product choices that are lining up to have a spot to have their say, get understanding and information to help them through their crisis and get some answers,

because the product rep that came in with lunch and a roll of pipe that promises to give you higher profit margins and less work, copper is bad mentality is long gone along with the guarantee that the product you now have miles installed is possibly starting to untie like your shoes when you was in grade school.

And to think that it's not a big deal? Maybe I was born under a park bench in the woods, yesterday.


Roast "working for the man" Duck
 

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Sorry Duck but not in the mood for an argument but I will say it will be a cold day in hell when anyone has to repair any of my Viega Pex installations, not in this lifetime.
 

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Ok, here's the deal duck. It’s 9:46pm and I'm just now walking in the door. I'm gonna go spend some time with my girl so I'm not going to unload on you tonight as I just don't have the time..........but tomorrow morning it's on boy!

I'll leave you with one question until morning: How would you have done it?

Given the fact that PEX stubouts in copper are made in Type L thickness?

I would of opened that wall up and braced that preformed copper stubout and turned out the copper, regular shutoff valve and then a properly sized flex riser.

No movement in the line whatsoever. I don't want any connection visible but 1, and that's where the shutoff valve connects to the piping.


I will bet you your business that if given the choice in design in subjective view from the customer's vantage point...they'd rather have that copper stubout and worry about a leak down the road........looooooong down the road than to have a connection that looks like ass cancer on farrah faucett not having the ability to even mop around their damn toilet after you left it like that. Please, do not tell me you're going to defend this. It's amazing that you're wanting to build momentum in silent thought to achieve this the next day.

Why the 2 barbed fittings? Why not a valve to crimp to the PB? If it is so good it should have a 1 step transition valve that offers the ability to just cut and crimp, be done with it!


This is where complicated has its own fix. It wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't the piping that's being used.

I personally could not do that to any of my customers. And if that is a zurn brass fitting, I'd be moving out of the country because those snap soon enough. The thickness of that brass barbed fitting along with water quality dictates all those parameters.


Like I said, I'm being reasonable. I can't see that connection you put up working anywhere in respect to a professional repair.

If you support it that much, put it in your latest tv advertising clip you posted on here. Be proud, show it off. Prove to me that the masses and your competition are going to call it good and I'll be your sheep.


Roast "boosting page views since 2002" Duck



One crimp connection at the wall, inside the wall and braced, not exposed.
 
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