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Since PZ came up I've spent very little time over at CT. Dropped in and just to read for the last 30 minutes or so for the first time in quite a while. Man what a shred factory the plumbers section has become. Maybe it's no different than it was but I've just gotten so use to the civility over here that I've thrown off all my flame protection making me much cooler and comfortable :laughing:.
 

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If you think we just a bunch of rude arrogant butt heads, go read the PlumingZone. You'll see we're civil and discuss things that will make some folks head spin.
We got a good grade from Double-A :thumbup:
 

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Barring the sporatic tauntings, heckling & death threats...I don't see any problem.
 

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Pretty much not on any other sites anymore . When you find a good place , why wander around getting all confused .

Cal
 

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Well, the rest of that post that Ron quoted was a good butt chewing for those that seem to think that craft skills are just a fancy name for "You can do it! We can help!"

I get tired of the flames against the newbs as well as against the other trades, but I feel the pain of someone underestimating the skill and experience required and overestimating their ability to deal with complex plumbing issues as if they were as simple as calling in for an inspection.

If I had a magic button that would take someones 1998 Mansfield toilet and turn it into a AmStd Vent-A-Way or a nice Crane Baron (the one with the dual floats and the fill valve in the center), or maybe a wall mounted tank with a leaking flush ell; right at the spud (insert evil laugh track here), I'd use it.

Ya, I want to teach them a lesson but I'd rather do it in a way that will have them realize that we're not just a bunch of high priced prima donas here. We risk our health to protect theirs every single day.

But, having said all that, I'm still a firm believer in manners. If you can't say it in a nice way, just keep it to yourself until you can. I'm seriously thinking of just making that post a sticky so we can link to it, or maybe have the mods just paste it in, lol. Naw.
 

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"Ask your plumber" doesn't seem to violate any conventional form of etiquette that I'm aware of.

It's the humor (albeit dark) that ensues that sometimes gets the newbies riled.
I said it there, if that kind of humor gets to you, I can't imagine you've been on many job sites.

I think the underlying frustration is in the fact that people have come to expect any forum with the word "plumbing" in it is a place where you can expect answers to questions you wouldn't ask any old plumber in the real world.

It's no more fun for us than the "how much?" questions that the other trades have come to redicule.

Having personally lost more than my share of work to unlicensed "handyman" services or "gc's" that fly under the radar, I certainly am not up to offering them help to complete the work they take from us in the first place.

Double-A, I think the major difference is the internet.

It's a whole new ballgame starting a new plumbing business now.

When you were just starting out, I suspect there was no where near as much interactive advice at the click of a mouse as there is now.

Another forum I know of features homeowners entering with full home diagrams or boiler schematics and a list of eager "plumbers" who review them and advise them on how to go about it, all for free.

What first lured me to CT was the fact that DIY'ers were turned away, and done so humorously...it seemed like a place to come and finally let down your hair without having to constantly have to re-explain why offering free advice on modifying a gas valve may not be such a great idea over and over and over again.

WInning friends, influencing people?
Sure, the right people.
The ones who defend their "right" to free info are almost always the ones doing something they shouldn't.

I respect the fact that CT had the integrety to see these things from the view of a tradesmen, and didn't succomb to the overwhelming popularity of DIY, home flippers and HGTV groupies.

Nathan seems to have had a great concept, and stuck to his guns to preserve it.
 

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As Grumpy said that is why I joined. I was defending our trade in other forums and I looked like the ass. It was hard to explain to HOs and DIYers about giving away free advise because so many so called "plumbers" were doing it day in and day out. Once I found CT and PZ I quit going anywhere else. When I am on the job I stir the pot. Not to be mean but just to make the day go by faster. If I was dead serious all the time then I would be miserable. Your right Grumpy if they cant take the humor then they havent been around construction....
 

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I think here on pz things are a little more civilized. glad to hear Snoopy gave us a good score! I still frequent ct because I am still a building contractor as well as a plumber. I dont spend quite as much time there, I like to get things rolling here. I have not been online as much lately as I have been leaving at 5:30 am and not getting home till 7:00 pm. Thats 7 days for the last 4 weeks. Not much time left for pz and beer!
 

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It's the humor (albeit dark) that ensues that sometimes gets the newbies riled.
I said it there, if that kind of humor gets to you, I can't imagine you've been on many job sites.

Double-A, I think the major difference is the internet.

It's a whole new ballgame starting a new plumbing business now.

When you were just starting out, I suspect there was no where near as much interactive advice at the click of a mouse as there is now.

WInning friends, influencing people?
Sure, the right people.
I respect the fact that CT had the integrety to see these things from the view of a tradesmen, and didn't succomb to the overwhelming popularity of DIY, home flippers and HGTV groupies.

Nathan seems to have had a great concept, and stuck to his guns to preserve it.
I'm not on anyone's butt here, I'm just making the point that manners are something that I have learned are a leverage point in any discussion. One can never look as dumb being polite as someone that just flies off the handle with little to no provocation.

Like the song says, "A gentleman will walk but never run."

There is an old joke about two bulls, one young, one older. The young one wants to run down the hill and fraternize with one of the cows. The old bull suggests they walk down the hill and fraternize with all the cows.

Another good piece of advice is, "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread." I try not to be a fool as much as possible. I'm already a card carrying member of that club, so being polite is no skin off my nose.

And I completely agree with you, telling them to get someone that has a clue involved by way of "call your plumber" is good and i might add, polite advice.

Nathan does do a great job, but please quit telling him that. He raised my rates to two dollars a month, up from a dollar a month and that's half my allowance now.

You can't fraternize with the ladies on an empty wallet.
 

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Double, yer gettin' a deal there, I'm dolin' out 3.

Seriously, it's a matter of approach..I think steriotypically many of us in this trade tend to adopt a "nip it in the bud" approach.

Confronting customers with the not so easy truth that you can't install a water heater for $500 nor can you cut corners and avoid an inspection on a boiler and skip the flue liner to save them a few bucks tends to get us that way.

Another old song..."You gotta be cruel to be kind...".

Thats my story, I'm sticking to it.
 

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It goes in spurts. The more people that demand respect calmly from others the better it will get. Best to ignore the trouble makers and just enjoy their antics quietly.

CT is still a good place, the trouble that I see with it is that too many good people will not post on it and just prefer to post elsewhere. I think that all leads back to respect.

Clampman, Joe Carola... Sonny... they all have good advice and know their stuff. They just don't (or didn't) post as much because the discussions we have all seem to wind up with zippers down and measuring tapes out rather than a reasonable learning and sharing experience.

Face it, that is why you like this place more. You're getting that here. As this place grows, more idgits and pot stirrers will show up and try to rain on the parade. Its up to the members of the site to keep them in line. All the moderators can do is enforce the rules, we can't direct participation and positive peer pressure. That has to come from the membership.
 

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I like CT for the fact that there are some very helpful chats there, mixed with off color humor and a higher level of trade respect than most forums.

What drew me there in the first place was a thread scorching a DIY inquiry.

Seems like too many forums develope a weird politically correct driven mentality that plumbers are obligated to dole out free info to all who ask, it's the moral thing to do.

Then you have fifteen plumbers from all across the country competing for pats on the back and kudo's, all the while some shop out there is out a customer.

My approach might be viewed as selfish, but when I spend the amount of time I do filtering through rediculous requests on price or "customers" that are only interested in picking my brain for idea's, it makes me somewhat jaded on the topic.

Smells recent thread is a perfect example of what I go through regularly, I understand thats par for the course, but the odds are more stacked against this trade than ever.

I think it has alot to do with the internet, the fact that the yellow pages are all but a thing of the past and the internet has surpassed it for advertizing sums it well.

Doing a web search for a plumber and seeing half the search page filled with DIY forums is a hard thing to compete with...lotsa eager plumbers out there seem content to live off pats on the back.

Thank God CT/Zone isn't one of those forums.
 

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Double - A -- You are very wise and many (if they choose) will learn a wealth of information from you. Too many people are too eager to fire off a post without remembering there is a human being on the receiving end. Internet is a breeding ground for cowards to start trouble. When posting, sarcasm/humor can be misinterpretted if you do not know your audience.

Example: Some could read above that I am referring to individuals here on Plumbing Zone - I'm not.
Some could read that cowards here are starting trouble - I'm not.

It is a continuation of what Double-A is referring to. Many more members will be joining and some will join for the purpose of riling everyone up. If they do not get what they came for, they will leave.
 
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