Need tankless help! - Plumbing Zone

Miguel · 08-27-2010, 12:07 AM

We have a laundry / drycleaner customer that needs a fast upgrade to a proper HW solution. You'd cry if you saw the inadequate system he now has in place (33MBTUH 50USG direct vent residential heater). It can't do it and he's just added a new washer that requires 15gpm @ 140 F.

The old washer was 3.5 - 4.0 gpm at best and pretty much the highest HW user in the place (he also has a small steam plant for the sheet presses and such). Now he's added this giant Wascomat.

I was thinking of a couple of Rinnai R98's (yeh, this is Rinnai country here) and a 60 or 80 gal storage tank, pumps, etc. Temp rise is 100 degF all winter and 70 degF for two months of the year. The cycle times of the Wascomat make me think that this'd work just fine but I'd like to hear from people that might know better than me.

Thoughts, ppl?

Thanks,
Mig

Miguel · 08-27-2010, 09:46 PM

So 48 views and we got nuthin'???
I thought that this crew would have at the very least a snide remark or two. lol

But I think I've got my proposal ready anyhow. Just thought I'd run it by the Zone since I know that there's a lot of really good experience living here.

Tommy plumber · 08-28-2010, 02:20 AM

According to Rheem, 1st, establish peak demand in gallons per hr. Then evaluate W/H on same GPH
basis to determine how many gallons needed to meet demand.

check out this:http://rheem.com/WHTechBulletins.aspx

plumjoe · 08-28-2010, 02:55 AM

http://eternalwaterheater.com/products.html i havent installed them in a commercial job but have used it in residental one heater to replace two 50 gal heaters and no complaints

vinpadalino · 08-29-2010, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

We have a laundry / drycleaner customer that needs a fast upgrade to a proper HW solution. You'd cry if you saw the inadequate system he now has in place (33MBTUH 50USG direct vent residential heater). It can't do it and he's just added a new washer that requires 15gpm @ 140 F.

The old washer was 3.5 - 4.0 gpm at best and pretty much the highest HW user in the place (he also has a small steam plant for the sheet presses and such). Now he's added this giant Wascomat.

I was thinking of a couple of Rinnai R98's (yeh, this is Rinnai country here) and a 60 or 80 gal storage tank, pumps, etc. Temp rise is 100 degF all winter and 70 degF for two months of the year. The cycle times of the Wascomat make me think that this'd work just fine but I'd like to hear from people that might know better than me.

Thoughts, ppl?

Thanks,
Mig

They have Natural gas? How many machines? I'm not a big fan of tank-less water heaters. Bradford white makes a nice system to compete with the tank-less. Runs off natural gas.

plbgbiz · 08-29-2010, 09:28 PM

Be sure to double check the pipe size vs. btu's. It would seem unlikely it is sized to handle one, much less multiple tankless heaters.

Rinnai should be able to spec the system if you know the peak GPM demand and input temperature of the water.

PaulW · 09-01-2010, 09:56 AM

Just throwing an option out there:
http://www.eternalwaterheater.com

Paul

Redwood · 09-01-2010, 09:45 PM

The Eternal Water Heater is just a small tank that flows around 4 change gallons of hot water once the tank has been depleted. Somehow I don't think it's a viable option in this application.

Miguel · 09-01-2010, 11:29 PM

Thanks for the replies, folks.
Still not sure which route we'll take but I've had replies from both Rinnai (called my cell phone! Go figure! and BW). Bradford White and A.O. Smith both have tank type heaters that'll do the job. In talking to A.O. Smith we got into heaters that last two years at best. Bradford White seems to be taking the same stance as AOS.

Personally I think that the tankless route is best for this outfit. I've sized it myself to two units (98LSi) and storage (either BW or AOS) but it is a bare minimum based on knowing how cheap the customer is and down-the-road hardships (when one unit fails, the one or two others won't be far behind.)
I don't want to be the guy with egg on my face after two years replacing the A.O.Smith with another 6 grand water heater!

Btw, tank type heaters are in the 60 - 90 gal range @ 155 - 210MBTUH.
I just checked day before yesterday w/ commercial customers that I'd added or replaced 80 - 120 gal storage tanks and so far 8 - 10 yrs good service. I've still got a Burkay 499MBtuh still in service from '92! From my records, any other place that I'd installed similar DHW capacity has either closed or had to change after 6 - 8 yrs. And in that time the city has changed our water supply to a chloraminated system of disinfection (chlorine and ammonia) which has shortened the lifespan of everything from faucet washers to flapper valves. Nothing seems to be lasting as long as they once did.

PaulW · 09-02-2010, 05:23 PM

Quote:

The Eternal Water Heater is just a small tank that flows around 4 change gallons of hot water once the tank has been depleted. Somehow I don't think it's a viable option in this application.

Redwood- Take another look at it. I dont think you have a complete grasp of the unit and its capabilities.

08-27-2010, 12:07 AM	#1
Miguel Drained Professional Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Sunset Country, Ontario Posts: 709 My Photos	Need tankless help! We have a laundry / drycleaner customer that needs a fast upgrade to a proper HW solution. You'd cry if you saw the inadequate system he now has in place (33MBTUH 50USG direct vent residential heater). It can't do it and he's just added a new washer that requires 15gpm @ 140 F. The old washer was 3.5 - 4.0 gpm at best and pretty much the highest HW user in the place (he also has a small steam plant for the sheet presses and such). Now he's added this giant Wascomat. I was thinking of a couple of Rinnai R98's (yeh, this is Rinnai country here) and a 60 or 80 gal storage tank, pumps, etc. Temp rise is 100 degF all winter and 70 degF for two months of the year. The cycle times of the Wascomat make me think that this'd work just fine but I'd like to hear from people that might know better than me. Thoughts, ppl? Thanks, Mig __________________ *BOOM-diyada! Life is good!*

08-27-2010, 09:46 PM	#2
Miguel Drained Professional Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Sunset Country, Ontario Posts: 709 My Photos	So 48 views and we got nuthin'??? I thought that this crew would have at the very least a snide remark or two. lol But I think I've got my proposal ready anyhow. Just thought I'd run it by the Zone since I know that there's a lot of really good experience living here. __________________ *BOOM-diyada! Life is good!*

08-28-2010, 02:20 AM	#3
Tommy plumber Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: South Florida Posts: 4,145 My Photos	According to Rheem, 1st, establish peak demand in gallons per hr. Then evaluate W/H on same GPH basis to determine how many gallons needed to meet demand. check out this:http://rheem.com/WHTechBulletins.aspx __________________ Hire a licensed master plumber. Last edited by Tommy plumber; 08-28-2010 at 02:42 AM.. Reason: have a hard time getting links to work

08-29-2010, 09:28 PM	#6
plbgbiz Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Oklahoma City Posts: 3,626 My Photos	Be sure to double check the pipe size vs. btu's. It would seem unlikely it is sized to handle one, much less multiple tankless heaters. Rinnai should be able to spec the system if you know the peak GPM demand and input temperature of the water. __________________ John Johnson Water Works Plumbing, Inc. - Oklahoma City, OK Water Works on the Web Water Works on Facebook

09-01-2010, 09:56 AM	#7
PaulW Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 99 My Photos	Just throwing an option out there: http://www.eternalwaterheater.com Paul __________________ General Manager Progressive Services LLC Clermont, Florida http://www.progressiveservices.com

08-28-2010, 02:55 AM	#4
plumjoe Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: texas Posts: 42 My Photos	http://eternalwaterheater.com/products.html i havent installed them in a commercial job but have used it in residental one heater to replace two 50 gal heaters and no complaints

09-01-2010, 09:45 PM	#8
Redwood jA-Rod dat u? Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Connecticut Posts: 9,252 My Photos	The Eternal Water Heater is just a small tank that flows around 4 change gallons of hot water once the tank has been depleted. Somehow I don't think it's a viable option in this application. __________________ *"Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power."* ~Benito Mussolini~ Lloyd Blankfein for President 2012 - Save Money Cut Out The Middleman! 411 Plumb Appliance Stimulus Package

09-01-2010, 11:29 PM	#9
Miguel Drained Professional Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Sunset Country, Ontario Posts: 709 My Photos	Thanks for the replies, folks. Still not sure which route we'll take but I've had replies from both Rinnai (called my cell phone! Go figure! and BW). Bradford White and A.O. Smith both have tank type heaters that'll do the job. In talking to A.O. Smith we got into heaters that last two years at best. Bradford White seems to be taking the same stance as AOS. Personally I think that the tankless route is best for this outfit. I've sized it myself to two units (98LSi) and storage (either BW or AOS) but it is a bare minimum based on knowing how cheap the customer is and down-the-road hardships (when one unit fails, the one or two others won't be far behind.) I don't want to be the guy with egg on my face after two years replacing the A.O.Smith with another 6 grand water heater! Btw, tank type heaters are in the 60 - 90 gal range @ 155 - 210MBTUH. I just checked day before yesterday w/ commercial customers that I'd added or replaced 80 - 120 gal storage tanks and so far 8 - 10 yrs good service. I've still got a Burkay 499MBtuh still in service from '92! From my records, any other place that I'd installed similar DHW capacity has either closed or had to change after 6 - 8 yrs. And in that time the city has changed our water supply to a chloraminated system of disinfection (chlorine and ammonia) which has shortened the lifespan of everything from faucet washers to flapper valves. Nothing seems to be lasting as long as they once did. __________________ *BOOM-diyada! Life is good!*

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