Navian #1 - Plumbing Zone

smellslike$tome · 03-10-2010, 10:09 PM

No, I am not proclaiming the preeminence of Navien, far from it. I am however installing my 1st Navien tomorrow morning.

Yesterday afternoon I sold a Noritz NR 98 DVC and had no choice but to schedule it for Thursday. Today I installed another NR 98 DVC and so the other one had to be done tomorrow. Well we get a call this morning from the ho saying that she was going with another quote (even though she had already signed on the dotted line with me). I stop what I'm doing and call her. I begin to contrast the things I know about Navien with the things I know about Noritz with her. The other quote, however, is about $400 less for a condensing unit than my quote for a non-condensing (it was either a low ball quote or a quote by someone who does not yet know how to price this work). Anyway I've already ordered everything at this point and the schedule was clear to accommodate this install which means if I don't do this install then I have nothing to do.

I try first to offer an upgrade to the NRC 111 at my original price. I think I'm tempting her but in the end it just doesn't fly. Ultimately I have to offer to match the other offer (something I would not ordinarily do) or lose the job.

I guess it was because, in my mind, I had already taken ownership of this job yesterday afternoon and was unwilling to give it back if I could help it. I wound up offering to honor the other quote with the only concession being that I will be doing an outside install about 10' from the gas meter. I still have to run a return line for the recirc through a crawl space but that's better than the other guys plan. He was going to leave the unit in the bathroom closet where the existing wh is, go horizontally through the wall for combustion air and replace the vertical b vent through the roof with sch 40 pvc. He also would have had to run about 40' of 1/2" semi rigid copper tubing for the gas supply (2 psig) and a return line back to the other side of the house. Sale price was $3325. I haven't done one that cheap in about a year and a half and wouldn't have done this one so cheap except that I already had the deal inked and didn't want to give it up.

Ok so all of you Navien people, anything special I need to know?

rex · 03-10-2010, 10:21 PM

hot on the left cold on the right.....

NAVIEN.....

smellslike$tome · 03-10-2010, 10:25 PM

Yeah, I caught that after the fact and was too lazy to change it, sue me.

Got any helpful info about the install or the product?

smellslike$tome · 03-11-2010, 07:44 AM

Better?

fhrace · 03-11-2010, 08:40 PM

Take some pictures?

smellslike$tome · 03-12-2010, 09:37 PM

1. This thing seems very loud to me.

2. The remote was busted right out of the box. Read the warranty info which says pretty much that they will replace the parts and pay whatever labor they feel like paying and I'm sure that that labor rate will not cover the 1.5 hours I stood around waiting for a return phone call from "tech support".

3. I did not like having to fiddle around with dip switches in order to set it up for external recirculation. This was no big deal really but never having done it before, it took me a little time to make sure I was doing it correctly.

4. Don't know how the weight compares to other condensing units but it seemed big and bulky compared to the N0751DVC I'm used to installing.

5. Didn't see any kind of clip for the condensate drain hose they provided. It was difficult to get on and I'm not sure it will stay there.

6. Under the conditions in which I installed it, it should produce, according to Navien, 7.7 gpms. I have no way of knowing for sure because the remote was broken and even if it worked I saw no instructions anywhere on how to access a maintenance monitor if one even exists. Anyway I am VERY confident that this unit did not produce 7.7 gpm. This was a 2 bath house. There was a very noticeable reduction in flow when a third fixture was added to two tubs.

7. This was an outdoor install so the venting was no big deal but this becomes more labor intensive when running both combustion air as well as vent when it's installed in an interior room. This would be troublesome with any condensing unit however, so that is nothing special to Navien.

8. I don't know if the recirc system works or not since in order to set the timer you must have a working remote.

9. I really wonder about the efficiency claims. If the projected flow rate is inaccurate, how can I believe in the efficiency claims.

10. Hooking up the broken remote was a pain in the arse. You get two bare ended wires coming from the control board and two more bare ended wires (about 4" long) coming from the remote. The remote can't be installed outside (not that I would anyway) but the orange wire coming from the board is not nearly long enough (maybe about 4', I don't know because I didn't measure).

I installed this unit because it was either Navien or nothing. Next time it might be nothing.

breid1903 · 03-12-2010, 10:28 PM

next time it MIGHT be nothing. i love it. might. you will do it again. breid...............

smellslike$tome · 03-12-2010, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by breid1903

next time it MIGHT be nothing. i love it. might. you will do it again. breid...............

Only if they absolutely refuse to listen to reason and are yet willing to show me the money.

I can say emphatically though that it won't be done at that price again.

Tankless · 03-13-2010, 01:22 AM

I fricken love it!!

It doesn't get much easier after a few more!!

All your points are right on as well.
Bad remote? Yeah pal....I got that:

Photo554.jpg

Don't expect anything in terms of payment to replace it.
They are loud, and obnoxiously heavy.

The dip switches are lame....in this day in age, we still have dip switches? That is right out of the 1970's and it is a PITA to make sure everything is set correctly.

Recirc will not work until the remote is working, and you have programmed it. Think the stupid dip switches (Takagi) were bad? Wait till you have to set the schedule. There is no monitor from the remote....it's a very dumb system....again poor engineering.

You can see the GPM by pressing and holding the button on the left for a few seconds. There are two buttons....like just push buttons, kinda in the middle of the board, off to the left center. I have never pushed the right one. But that one on the left will take you through about 5 or 6 pages of data that is displated on the clock counter. The first one will be GPM, than one or two, than it will be the incoming temp than the output temp. Have fun watching this thing try and maintain a stable output.....

There is no clip or any kind of connector for the condensate hose. Just sort of thread it on backwards. These units condense a lot more than the Noritz units do and the PH level is really high, so careful where you discharge. Old cast will get worked real quick....within a few years I'd say.

Remember how this job came about with this client....make sure your paperwork is in order so you do not marry the unit. You have a 60% chance for a guaranteed call back, dot your Eye's!!

Now you have a little window into why I hate these F-ing POS units so much.

I assume you know better, but I'll remind you.....what ALWAYS happens when we give people a break, or more for the money or an extra favor? They always want more, and like a stupid kitten, they expect it now. Cash that check and burn the invoice

Quote:

Originally Posted by smellslike$tome

1. This thing seems very loud to me.

2. The remote was busted right out of the box. Read the warranty info which says pretty much that they will replace the parts and pay whatever labor they feel like paying and I'm sure that that labor rate will not cover the 1.5 hours I stood around waiting for a return phone call from "tech support".

3. I did not like having to fiddle around with dip switches in order to set it up for external recirculation. This was no big deal really but never having done it before, it took me a little time to make sure I was doing it correctly.

4. Don't know how the weight compares to other condensing units but it seemed big and bulky compared to the N0751DVC I'm used to installing.

5. Didn't see any kind of clip for the condensate drain hose they provided. It was difficult to get on and I'm not sure it will stay there.

6. Under the conditions in which I installed it, it should produce, according to Navien, 7.7 gpms. I have no way of knowing for sure because the remote was broken and even if it worked I saw no instructions anywhere on how to access a maintenance monitor if one even exists. Anyway I am VERY confident that this unit did not produce 7.7 gpm. This was a 2 bath house. There was a very noticeable reduction in flow when a third fixture was added to two tubs.

7. This was an outdoor install so the venting was no big deal but this becomes more labor intensive when running both combustion air as well as vent when it's installed in an interior room. This would be troublesome with any condensing unit however, so that is nothing special to Navien.

8. I don't know if the recirc system works or not since in order to set the timer you must have a working remote.

9. I really wonder about the efficiency claims. If the projected flow rate is inaccurate, how can I believe in the efficiency claims.

10. Hooking up the broken remote was a pain in the arse. You get two bare ended wires coming from the control board and two more bare ended wires (about 4" long) coming from the remote. The remote can't be installed outside (not that I would anyway) but the orange wire coming from the board is not nearly long enough (maybe about 4', I don't know because I didn't measure).

I installed this unit because it was either Navien or nothing. Next time it might be nothing.

SewerRatz · 03-13-2010, 10:21 AM

I been flat out refusing to install these units. I rather turn down the work than install something and "marry" the unit as Tankless puts it. I will give them other options but some people fall for all the hype out there that Navien and its reps are spewing.

03-12-2010, 09:37 PM	#6
smellslike$tome residential service Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 1,809 My Photos	I was not impressed. 1. This thing seems very loud to me. 2. The remote was busted right out of the box. Read the warranty info which says pretty much that they will replace the parts and pay whatever labor they feel like paying and I'm sure that that labor rate will not cover the 1.5 hours I stood around waiting for a return phone call from "tech support". 3. I did not like having to fiddle around with dip switches in order to set it up for external recirculation. This was no big deal really but never having done it before, it took me a little time to make sure I was doing it correctly. 4. Don't know how the weight compares to other condensing units but it seemed big and bulky compared to the N0751DVC I'm used to installing. 5. Didn't see any kind of clip for the condensate drain hose they provided. It was difficult to get on and I'm not sure it will stay there. 6. Under the conditions in which I installed it, it should produce, according to Navien, 7.7 gpms. I have no way of knowing for sure because the remote was broken and even if it worked I saw no instructions anywhere on how to access a maintenance monitor if one even exists. Anyway I am VERY confident that this unit did not produce 7.7 gpm. This was a 2 bath house. There was a very noticeable reduction in flow when a third fixture was added to two tubs. 7. This was an outdoor install so the venting was no big deal but this becomes more labor intensive when running both combustion air as well as vent when it's installed in an interior room. This would be troublesome with any condensing unit however, so that is nothing special to Navien. 8. I don't know if the recirc system works or not since in order to set the timer you must have a working remote. 9. I really wonder about the efficiency claims. If the projected flow rate is inaccurate, how can I believe in the efficiency claims. 10. Hooking up the broken remote was a pain in the arse. You get two bare ended wires coming from the control board and two more bare ended wires (about 4" long) coming from the remote. The remote can't be installed outside (not that I would anyway) but the orange wire coming from the board is not nearly long enough (maybe about 4', I don't know because I didn't measure). I installed this unit because it was either Navien or nothing. Next time it might be nothing.

03-13-2010, 10:21 AM	#10
SewerRatz Illinois Licensed Plumber Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Chicago Area Posts: 2,705 My Photos	I been flat out refusing to install these units. I rather turn down the work than install something and "marry" the unit as Tankless puts it. I will give them other options but some people fall for all the hype out there that Navien and its reps are spewing. __________________ Ron Hasil Lic #058-160417 A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing specializing in: Tankless Water Heaters \| Drain and Sewer Cleaning Sump and Ejector Pumps \| Backflow RPZ Testing

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03-10-2010, 10:09 PM	#1
smellslike$tome residential service Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 1,809 My Photos	Navien #1 No, I am not proclaiming the preeminence of Navien, far from it. I am however installing my 1st Navien tomorrow morning. Yesterday afternoon I sold a Noritz NR 98 DVC and had no choice but to schedule it for Thursday. Today I installed another NR 98 DVC and so the other one had to be done tomorrow. Well we get a call this morning from the ho saying that she was going with another quote (even though she had already signed on the dotted line with me). I stop what I'm doing and call her. I begin to contrast the things I know about Navien with the things I know about Noritz with her. The other quote, however, is about $400 less for a condensing unit than my quote for a non-condensing (it was either a low ball quote or a quote by someone who does not yet know how to price this work). Anyway I've already ordered everything at this point and the schedule was clear to accommodate this install which means if I don't do this install then I have nothing to do. I try first to offer an upgrade to the NRC 111 at my original price. I think I'm tempting her but in the end it just doesn't fly. Ultimately I have to offer to match the other offer (something I would not ordinarily do) or lose the job. I guess it was because, in my mind, I had already taken ownership of this job yesterday afternoon and was unwilling to give it back if I could help it. I wound up offering to honor the other quote with the only concession being that I will be doing an outside install about 10' from the gas meter. I still have to run a return line for the recirc through a crawl space but that's better than the other guys plan. He was going to leave the unit in the bathroom closet where the existing wh is, go horizontally through the wall for combustion air and replace the vertical b vent through the roof with sch 40 pvc. He also would have had to run about 40' of 1/2" semi rigid copper tubing for the gas supply (2 psig) and a return line back to the other side of the house. Sale price was $3325. I haven't done one that cheap in about a year and a half and wouldn't have done this one so cheap except that I already had the deal inked and didn't want to give it up. Ok so all of you Navien people, anything special I need to know? Last edited by smellslike$tome; 03-11-2010 at 07:43 AM..

03-10-2010, 10:21 PM	#2
rex Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Cohoctah,MI Posts: 239 My Photos	hot on the left cold on the right..... NAVIEN.....

03-10-2010, 10:25 PM	#3
smellslike$tome residential service Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 1,809 My Photos	Yeah, I caught that after the fact and was too lazy to change it, sue me. Got any helpful info about the install or the product?

03-11-2010, 07:44 AM	#4
smellslike$tome residential service Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 1,809 My Photos	Better?

03-11-2010, 08:40 PM	#5
fhrace Plumbing Apprentice Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 127 My Photos	Take some pictures?

03-12-2010, 10:28 PM	#7
breid1903 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: fulton, indiana Posts: 600 My Photos	next time it MIGHT be nothing. i love it. might. you will do it again. breid...............