Leaking ZURN PEX.. Lets look into the future. - Page 7 - Plumbing Zone

para1 · 07-25-2009, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artisan

__WOW, this list seems to have some knowledgeable guys in it and I like the boot the DIY'ers are getting / the self policing of the list seems to keep them out. It SLAYS me that some plumbers will offer up DIY repair info on their website, WHY? So they will fix it them selves and not call a pro, or is it they want to show there skills? Ummm, well, another topic...

__I have not done an intro, I did place my web site Addy under my user name, suggesting a click tells much. I can tell you here I am a graduate of Southern California Pipe Trades Trainer Center, a union school, 5.5 years, graduated when I was about 21 years old and I am almost 51 now, and I wiped the floor w/ 90% of all others in all my classes. I can not remember how many times Journeymen would call the BA and complain about the "Apprentice" that was the boss on the job and each time I was just moved to a new place or the complainers were, w/ the latter usually happening. After 7 years vested I flipped the BA off when he sent out a new pipe handler and I was left on the bench, I was only on the bench twice since starting as a shop grunt at 15 years old. That was BS! I never looked back...

__Look up the July 2002 Issue of Reeves Journal Magazine for more info, I am on the cover and there is a small spread inside about Moi' as well. I am not the messiah of plumbing, no where near it, there is always another whom is better tis why I seek out lists like this. Another list I am on is the PIPDL a Yahoo Group that can be VERY entertaining at times, Sylvan Teiger from NY runs that ship.

CASE and POINT / Q's;
__I have resisted PEX for years and of course it didn't help that California only recently approved it. I do believe, as w/ CSST (in certain conditions) that I wish to convert to PEX installs seeing it will probably last longer than our children's, children and then some when installed properly and I am sure, ( ? ) not exposed to UV light.

__Just today I ran into ANOTHER copper pin hole leak in a home and I suggested a PEX repipe over copper for the above reasons. I am SO GLAD I saw the Zurn fitting issue. I would suggest the "thinness" has EVERYTHING to do with it with expansion and contraction being the culprit, it seems the jury is out on this, just an observation. I think I would settle w/ a 4-5 GPM flow rate over the 8 GPM rate and have thicker fittings than issues.

PURPOSE FOR POST;

__I have not done a PEX system yet. I am sure it will be easier yet not having done it I am sure there are a few tricks one would want to know prior. Herein I ask for some enlightenment as to your observations. I.E.

Looks like I won't be using Zurn, ehh?
What tools are best?
Plastic vs Bronze/Brass/Powder coated, what do YOU use?
Which manufacturer seems to have the BEST materials.
Pros and Cons
Tips and Tricks
What Co. has a good quality distribution block?
Strapping issues / Suggestions
Using PEX in the ground from the meter? Is it OK?
So what, use copper where the water service is exposed? (we are no freeze here) I would think solid brass, HA! $$$
I have a habit of doing installs square to the world, straight, level, plumb etc. Will I go bonkers?
Is it advisable to test above 80 PSI and yes, I would have automatically added a regulator if the pressure exceed 80psi.

__If it is considered I am high-jacking this thread please advise and I will delete and post anew elsewhere.

__Any and all info would be much appreciated.

Regards,
Brad Davis
http://www.plumbers.cc

Yes, you will go bonkers at first. It goes against all your professional instincts.

rickmccarthy · 07-26-2009, 01:32 AM

Uponor wirsbo the best use the expansion rings theyhave a hand tool or you can spring for a battery operated expander pex in slab ablolutely sleeve it (here at least) test it at 100 psi your fine staight plumb level youll lose your friggan mind but you can get it pretty good if you work with it use the bend supports it is much faster but you wont save much time at first because you will spend so much time trying to make it look like copper. You wont close maybe take advantage of the quality of the material the speed of the install and go fishing

Wai Corp · 02-08-2010, 12:57 PM

This is an example of the ambulance chasing lawyer hype that is being circulated about Zurn PEX. From the external oxidation and deposits in the photo, one can see that this fitting was leaking at the cinch clamp and not due to through-wall corrosion of the fitting itself - the latter of which is the alleged Zurn issue. In this photo, one can also see that the installer DID NOT use Zurn stainless steel cinch rings but rather used VANGUARD cinch rings on Zurn Pex tubing. So this is NOT a Zurn failure. Moreover, it is not a Vanguard cinch failure either because you can see that the cinch ring was not properly (fully) squeezed together. It could not have passed a go-no go check. In short, the PEX installer screwed up not Zurn and not Vanguard. Its just a sloppy amateur connection. Moreover, since both cinch rings are defectively installed, one can only wonder how much of the other pex in the home is in similar condition. Amateurs CAN install pex simply and easily. But you have to read the one page of instruction that comes with the PEX cinch tool and use the go no-go gage. If you can't read, then leave the job to professionals.

Wai Corp · 02-08-2010, 01:35 PM

Para1 - Would you put horseshoes on your car? Then, why put old fashioned corrosive copper pipe back in your home? Time to step into the 21st century, save time, do it better, faster, and cheaper with PEX. Q. Why does anyone still plumb in copper? Ans. - Because it takes so much time to cut & sweat the fittings together and time is money $$$$. Also why put in a maintenance free PEX system when you can install copper and have your customers coming back for repairs a few years later?

>>Looks like I won't be using Zurn, ehh? << NOTHING wrong with Zurn but stick with their newer poly fittings. If you want the ease of brass PEX fittings that can be found off the shelf at Lowe's, rather than special ordering poly fittings from your plumbing supply store, then go with Vanguard. They are thicker than Zurn's brass fittings and more durable. The Vanguard fittings also can be installed with either crimp or cinch clamps rings and the install tools are more universal. Zurn's poly fittings need the Zurn cinch ring. You can't use a crimp ring with them.

>>What tools are best? << Use Zurn stainless cinch rings and the Zurn cinch ring tool on Zurn poly fittings not a crimp ring or another vendor's cinch rings. If you go with brass fittings, you can use pretty much any crimp ring tool and manufacturer, but I prefer the Kobalt multi-size crimp ring tool and the Vanguard black copper crimp rings. Wisbro also makes a great compression ring system that uses their proprietary tool, proprietary rings, and PEX tubing. Nice but your supply options are limited.

>>Plastic vs Bronze/Brass/Powder coated, what do YOU use? < Vanguard OR ZURN Poly FITTINGS are best in my view. But Vanguard brass fittings are also ok. The brass fittings have more options.

>Which manufacturer seems to have the BEST materials.

>Pros and Cons - What's not to like about PEX? Store new, unused pex in the dark next to your vampire. That's all.
>Tips and Tricks< When doing a major remodel or renovation, seriously consider the home-run style layout option rather than using a tree-branch scheme to replace the copper. With PEX, you can run the pipe anywhere you like and do not have to follow the old contorted copper runs and cramped access to fittings. Aim to minimize the number of connections and branches within the walls. Ideally, have none (i.e., one connection at the fixture and one connection at the supply manifold. Keep in mind that drywall is cheap.

>What Co. has a good quality distribution block? I like Manabloc or Zurn manifolds made from poly not copper.

>Strapping issues / Suggestions - Don't ever consider using metal.

>Using PEX in the ground from the meter? Is it OK? The manufacturers all say yes, but you have to make sure the pipe bed is OK and that the pipe can move somewhat. Pex thermally expands and contracts much more so than metal or PVC. Also, PEX is pretty durable but read the instructions and watch out for PEX installations with chlorine (water softeners).
>So what, use copper where the water service is exposed? (we are no freeze here) I would think solid brass, HA! $$$ I'd use use heavy gauge copper or CPVC
.
>I have a habit of doing installs square to the world, straight, level, plumb etc. Will I go bonkers? It helps to have a couple Jack Daniels before you start running the PEX. The drywall also helps.

>>Is it advisable to test above 80 PSI and yes, I would have automatically added a regulator if the pressure exceed 80psi. -you mean a relief valve?

Plumber Jim · 02-08-2010, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wai Corp

Para1 - Would you put horseshoes on your car? Then, why put old fashioned corrosive copper pipe back in your home? Time to step into the 21st century, save time, do it better, faster, and cheaper with PEX. Q. Why does anyone still plumb in copper? Ans. - Because it takes so much time to cut & sweat the fittings together and time is money $$$$. Also why put in a maintenance free PEX system when you can install copper and have your customers coming back for repairs a few years later?

>>Looks like I won't be using Zurn, ehh? << NOTHING wrong with Zurn but stick with their newer poly fittings. If you want the ease of brass PEX fittings that can be found off the shelf at Lowe's, rather than special ordering poly fittings from your plumbing supply store, then go with Vanguard. They are thicker than Zurn's brass fittings and more durable. The Vanguard fittings also can be installed with either crimp or cinch clamps rings and the install tools are more universal. Zurn's poly fittings need the Zurn cinch ring. You can't use a crimp ring with them.

>>What tools are best? << Use Zurn stainless cinch rings and the Zurn cinch ring tool on Zurn poly fittings not a crimp ring or another vendor's cinch rings. If you go with brass fittings, you can use pretty much any crimp ring tool and manufacturer, but I prefer the Kobalt multi-size crimp ring tool and the Vanguard black copper crimp rings. Wisbro also makes a great compression ring system that uses their proprietary tool, proprietary rings, and PEX tubing. Nice but your supply options are limited.

>>Plastic vs Bronze/Brass/Powder coated, what do YOU use? < Vanguard OR ZURN Poly FITTINGS are best in my view. But Vanguard brass fittings are also ok. The brass fittings have more options.

>Which manufacturer seems to have the BEST materials.

>Pros and Cons - What's not to like about PEX? Store new, unused pex in the dark next to your vampire. That's all.
>Tips and Tricks< When doing a major remodel or renovation, seriously consider the home-run style layout option rather than using a tree-branch scheme to replace the copper. With PEX, you can run the pipe anywhere you like and do not have to follow the old contorted copper runs and cramped access to fittings. Aim to minimize the number of connections and branches within the walls. Ideally, have none (i.e., one connection at the fixture and one connection at the supply manifold. Keep in mind that drywall is cheap.

>What Co. has a good quality distribution block? I like Manabloc or Zurn manifolds made from poly not copper.

>Strapping issues / Suggestions - Don't ever consider using metal.

>Using PEX in the ground from the meter? Is it OK? The manufacturers all say yes, but you have to make sure the pipe bed is OK and that the pipe can move somewhat. Pex thermally expands and contracts much more so than metal or PVC. Also, PEX is pretty durable but read the instructions and watch out for PEX installations with chlorine (water softeners).
>So what, use copper where the water service is exposed? (we are no freeze here) I would think solid brass, HA! $$$ I'd use use heavy gauge copper or CPVC
.
>I have a habit of doing installs square to the world, straight, level, plumb etc. Will I go bonkers? It helps to have a couple Jack Daniels before you start running the PEX. The drywall also helps.

>>Is it advisable to test above 80 PSI and yes, I would have automatically added a regulator if the pressure exceed 80psi. -you mean a relief valve?

My zurn rep says you can use the copper rings with the plastic zurn fittings.

Now i don't use zurn but my brother is.

Protech · 02-08-2010, 06:52 PM

I looked into this issue and found the cause of the failure to be stress-corrosion cracking. It was caused by a bad batch of fittings that Zurn put out. Essentially a dull bit was used on the fittings during manufacturing that caused micro cracks to form in the metals crystalline structure. When exposed to water the cracks quickly corrode and cause the fitting to suddenly shear off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetness09

Home two years old, homeowner noticed a drip in his mechanical room coming from this hot 3/4" pex run. This line was STRAIGHT, not kinked or stressed out. Water pressure -60 lbs. At first inspection looks like a leaking crimp ring. It was a slow drip. After cutting this fitting out, the tee broke off in hand. Ive read about the lawsuit but this is the first fitting we have seen like this! Scary to think about, the home could have flooded at any time! How many of you have seen this?

RealLivePlumber · 02-08-2010, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wai Corp

Para1 - Would you put horseshoes on your car? Then, why put old fashioned corrosive copper pipe back in your home? Time to step into the 21st century, save time, do it better, faster, and cheaper with PEX. Q. Why does anyone still plumb in copper? Ans. - Because it takes so much time to cut & sweat the fittings together and time is money $$$$. Also why put in a maintenance free PEX system when you can install copper and have your customers coming back for repairs a few years later?

>>Looks like I won't be using Zurn, ehh? << NOTHING wrong with Zurn but stick with their newer poly fittings. If you want the ease of brass PEX fittings that can be found off the shelf at Lowe's, rather than special ordering poly fittings from your plumbing supply store, then go with Vanguard. They are thicker than Zurn's brass fittings and more durable. The Vanguard fittings also can be installed with either crimp or cinch clamps rings and the install tools are more universal. Zurn's poly fittings need the Zurn cinch ring. You can't use a crimp ring with them.

>>What tools are best? << Use Zurn stainless cinch rings and the Zurn cinch ring tool on Zurn poly fittings not a crimp ring or another vendor's cinch rings. If you go with brass fittings, you can use pretty much any crimp ring tool and manufacturer, but I prefer the Kobalt multi-size crimp ring tool and the Vanguard black copper crimp rings. Wisbro also makes a great compression ring system that uses their proprietary tool, proprietary rings, and PEX tubing. Nice but your supply options are limited.

>>Plastic vs Bronze/Brass/Powder coated, what do YOU use? < Vanguard OR ZURN Poly FITTINGS are best in my view. But Vanguard brass fittings are also ok. The brass fittings have more options.

>Which manufacturer seems to have the BEST materials.

>Pros and Cons - What's not to like about PEX? Store new, unused pex in the dark next to your vampire. That's all.
>Tips and Tricks< When doing a major remodel or renovation, seriously consider the home-run style layout option rather than using a tree-branch scheme to replace the copper. With PEX, you can run the pipe anywhere you like and do not have to follow the old contorted copper runs and cramped access to fittings. Aim to minimize the number of connections and branches within the walls. Ideally, have none (i.e., one connection at the fixture and one connection at the supply manifold. Keep in mind that drywall is cheap.

>What Co. has a good quality distribution block? I like Manabloc or Zurn manifolds made from poly not copper.

>Strapping issues / Suggestions - Don't ever consider using metal.

>Using PEX in the ground from the meter? Is it OK? The manufacturers all say yes, but you have to make sure the pipe bed is OK and that the pipe can move somewhat. Pex thermally expands and contracts much more so than metal or PVC. Also, PEX is pretty durable but read the instructions and watch out for PEX installations with chlorine (water softeners).
>So what, use copper where the water service is exposed? (we are no freeze here) I would think solid brass, HA! $$$ I'd use use heavy gauge copper or CPVC
.
>I have a habit of doing installs square to the world, straight, level, plumb etc. Will I go bonkers? It helps to have a couple Jack Daniels before you start running the PEX. The drywall also helps.

>>Is it advisable to test above 80 PSI and yes, I would have automatically added a regulator if the pressure exceed 80psi. -you mean a relief valve?

I believe an introduction is in order?

**ILPlumber** · 02-08-2010, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wai Corp

Para1 - Would you put horseshoes on your car? Then, why put old fashioned corrosive copper pipe back in your home? Time to step into the 21st century, save time, do it better, faster, and cheaper with PEX. Q. Why does anyone still plumb in copper? Ans. - Because it takes so much time to cut & sweat the fittings together and time is money $$$$. Also why put in a maintenance free PEX system when you can install copper and have your customers coming back for repairs a few years later?

>>Looks like I won't be using Zurn, ehh? << NOTHING wrong with Zurn but stick with their newer poly fittings. If you want the ease of brass PEX fittings that can be found off the shelf at Lowe's, rather than special ordering poly fittings from your plumbing supply store, then go with Vanguard. They are thicker than Zurn's brass fittings and more durable. The Vanguard fittings also can be installed with either crimp or cinch clamps rings and the install tools are more universal. Zurn's poly fittings need the Zurn cinch ring. You can't use a crimp ring with them.

>>What tools are best? << Use Zurn stainless cinch rings and the Zurn cinch ring tool on Zurn poly fittings not a crimp ring or another vendor's cinch rings. If you go with brass fittings, you can use pretty much any crimp ring tool and manufacturer, but I prefer the Kobalt multi-size crimp ring tool and the Vanguard black copper crimp rings. Wisbro also makes a great compression ring system that uses their proprietary tool, proprietary rings, and PEX tubing. Nice but your supply options are limited.

>>Plastic vs Bronze/Brass/Powder coated, what do YOU use? < Vanguard OR ZURN Poly FITTINGS are best in my view. But Vanguard brass fittings are also ok. The brass fittings have more options.

>Which manufacturer seems to have the BEST materials.

>Pros and Cons - What's not to like about PEX? Store new, unused pex in the dark next to your vampire. That's all.
>Tips and Tricks< When doing a major remodel or renovation, seriously consider the home-run style layout option rather than using a tree-branch scheme to replace the copper. With PEX, you can run the pipe anywhere you like and do not have to follow the old contorted copper runs and cramped access to fittings. Aim to minimize the number of connections and branches within the walls. Ideally, have none (i.e., one connection at the fixture and one connection at the supply manifold. Keep in mind that drywall is cheap.

>What Co. has a good quality distribution block? I like Manabloc or Zurn manifolds made from poly not copper.

>Strapping issues / Suggestions - Don't ever consider using metal.

>Using PEX in the ground from the meter? Is it OK? The manufacturers all say yes, but you have to make sure the pipe bed is OK and that the pipe can move somewhat. Pex thermally expands and contracts much more so than metal or PVC. Also, PEX is pretty durable but read the instructions and watch out for PEX installations with chlorine (water softeners).
>So what, use copper where the water service is exposed? (we are no freeze here) I would think solid brass, HA! $$$ I'd use use heavy gauge copper or CPVC
.
>I have a habit of doing installs square to the world, straight, level, plumb etc. Will I go bonkers? It helps to have a couple Jack Daniels before you start running the PEX. The drywall also helps.

>>Is it advisable to test above 80 PSI and yes, I would have automatically added a regulator if the pressure exceed 80psi. -you mean a relief valve?

Somebody read this and le me know if it needs moderated. I have too short of an attention span to get through it.

ToUtahNow · 02-08-2010, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILPlumber

Somebody read this and le me know if it needs moderated. I have too short of an attention span to get through it.

I believe your current signature says it all.

Mark

Ron · 02-08-2010, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILPlumber

Somebody read this and le me know if it needs moderated. I have too short of an attention span to get through it.

I think we need intro, without it just ignore him.

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07-26-2009, 01:32 AM	#62
rickmccarthy living the dream Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 151 My Photos	Uponor wirsbo the best use the expansion rings theyhave a hand tool or you can spring for a battery operated expander pex in slab ablolutely sleeve it (here at least) test it at 100 psi your fine staight plumb level youll lose your friggan mind but you can get it pretty good if you work with it use the bend supports it is much faster but you wont save much time at first because you will spend so much time trying to make it look like copper. You wont close maybe take advantage of the quality of the material the speed of the install and go fishing

02-08-2010, 12:57 PM	#63
Wai Corp Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 4 My Photos	This is an example of the ambulance chasing lawyer hype that is being circulated about Zurn PEX. From the external oxidation and deposits in the photo, one can see that this fitting was leaking at the cinch clamp and not due to through-wall corrosion of the fitting itself - the latter of which is the alleged Zurn issue. In this photo, one can also see that the installer DID NOT use Zurn stainless steel cinch rings but rather used VANGUARD cinch rings on Zurn Pex tubing. So this is NOT a Zurn failure. Moreover, it is not a Vanguard cinch failure either because you can see that the cinch ring was not properly (fully) squeezed together. It could not have passed a go-no go check. In short, the PEX installer screwed up not Zurn and not Vanguard. Its just a sloppy amateur connection. Moreover, since both cinch rings are defectively installed, one can only wonder how much of the other pex in the home is in similar condition. Amateurs CAN install pex simply and easily. But you have to read the one page of instruction that comes with the PEX cinch tool and use the go no-go gage. If you can't read, then leave the job to professionals.

02-08-2010, 01:35 PM	#64
Wai Corp Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 4 My Photos	Para1 - Would you put horseshoes on your car? Then, why put old fashioned corrosive copper pipe back in your home? Time to step into the 21st century, save time, do it better, faster, and cheaper with PEX. Q. Why does anyone still plumb in copper? Ans. - Because it takes so much time to cut & sweat the fittings together and time is money $$$$. Also why put in a maintenance free PEX system when you can install copper and have your customers coming back for repairs a few years later? >>Looks like I won't be using Zurn, ehh? << NOTHING wrong with Zurn but stick with their newer poly fittings. If you want the ease of brass PEX fittings that can be found off the shelf at Lowe's, rather than special ordering poly fittings from your plumbing supply store, then go with Vanguard. They are thicker than Zurn's brass fittings and more durable. The Vanguard fittings also can be installed with either crimp or cinch clamps rings and the install tools are more universal. Zurn's poly fittings need the Zurn cinch ring. You can't use a crimp ring with them. >>What tools are best? << Use Zurn stainless cinch rings and the Zurn cinch ring tool on Zurn poly fittings not a crimp ring or another vendor's cinch rings. If you go with brass fittings, you can use pretty much any crimp ring tool and manufacturer, but I prefer the Kobalt multi-size crimp ring tool and the Vanguard black copper crimp rings. Wisbro also makes a great compression ring system that uses their proprietary tool, proprietary rings, and PEX tubing. Nice but your supply options are limited. >>Plastic vs Bronze/Brass/Powder coated, what do YOU use? < Vanguard OR ZURN Poly FITTINGS are best in my view. But Vanguard brass fittings are also ok. The brass fittings have more options. >Which manufacturer seems to have the BEST materials. >Pros and Cons - What's not to like about PEX? Store new, unused pex in the dark next to your vampire. That's all. >Tips and Tricks< When doing a major remodel or renovation, seriously consider the home-run style layout option rather than using a tree-branch scheme to replace the copper. With PEX, you can run the pipe anywhere you like and do not have to follow the old contorted copper runs and cramped access to fittings. Aim to minimize the number of connections and branches within the walls. Ideally, have none (i.e., one connection at the fixture and one connection at the supply manifold. Keep in mind that drywall is cheap. >What Co. has a good quality distribution block? I like Manabloc or Zurn manifolds made from poly not copper. >Strapping issues / Suggestions - Don't ever consider using metal. >Using PEX in the ground from the meter? Is it OK? The manufacturers all say yes, but you have to make sure the pipe bed is OK and that the pipe can move somewhat. Pex thermally expands and contracts much more so than metal or PVC. Also, PEX is pretty durable but read the instructions and watch out for PEX installations with chlorine (water softeners). >So what, use copper where the water service is exposed? (we are no freeze here) I would think solid brass, HA! $$$ I'd use use heavy gauge copper or CPVC . >I have a habit of doing installs square to the world, straight, level, plumb etc. Will I go bonkers? It helps to have a couple Jack Daniels before you start running the PEX. The drywall also helps. >>Is it advisable to test above 80 PSI and yes, I would have automatically added a regulator if the pressure exceed 80psi. -you mean a relief valve?