Ontario Building Code or National Building Code-Questions re:building drain size - Page 3 - Plumbing Zone

CTC-OPIA · 03-01-2010, 07:29 AM

Hello,

You are correct, the stack to the kitchen need not be 4". The Ontario Building Code is very restrictive and has evolved. At one time it was required to be the furthest stack. Now its the furthest served by a water closet. Next time make the inspector write it up, then they have to find in the code where it states what they want. We have many inspectors now that have not be trained as plumbers inspecting plumbing. May refer to them as "one week wonders" because that is all the training they have had in plumbing.

Ciao,

Quote:

Originally Posted by markb

Interesting posts...

So here is my conclusion, and the inspector will hear about it next job

Nowhere in the Ontario building code does it state that all sanitary or waste stacks are required to be 4" at the base of the stack.

The Ontario Building Code 2006 does state that:

- A building drain must be 4" * Note 1 *

- A building drain begins at the building sewer and ends at our main soil stack (3" min to open air, most upstream soil stack from building sewer) * Note 2 *

- OBC states that every soil or waste stack be provided with a cleanout fitting *Note 3*

- Although it was previously thought of as safer while designing a plumbing system, NOT all underground should be 4". In fact, it is for the benefit of the system to size drains relative to the discharge it will receive using the tables included in OBC Part 7. *Note 4*

- A clean-out is required to be the same size as the discharge pipe, installed every 6 M on drainage piping smaller than 4" and carrying the discharge from a kitchen sink *Note 5*

Therefore, as long as the stack has the required clean-outs and sized according to table 7.4.10.6.A (Maximum permitted hydraulic loads drained into a soil or waste stack, Forming part of sentence 7.4.10.6(1)) it has met the requirements of the Ontario Building Code and can be installed legally.

References
Note 1: 7.4.9.4 (1) Every sanitary building drain and every sanitary building sewer shall be at least 4" in size

Note 2: (OBC Part 1 (definitions), sanitary building drain) Sanitary Building Drain: means a building drain that conducts sewage to a building sewer from the most upstream soil or waste stack, branch or fixture drain serving a water closet.
As long as a stack is not serving water closets, there is no way that they can even be considered part of the sanitary building drain. Thus, they are NOT required to be 4" underground.

Note 3: 7.4.7.1 (7) Every soil or waste stack shall be provided with a clean-out fitting
a) At the bottom of the stack
b) Not more than 1000mm upstream of the bottom of the stack, or
c) on a Y fitting connecting the stack to the building drain or branch
Note 4: “Years ago it was common practice to install drainage piping larger than necessary on the assumption that this would increase the efficiency of the drain. It was later realized that an oversized drain tends to be less efficient because the flow of water is too shallow to properly transport solids and also because it fails to provide the scouring action so important in keeping a drain clear.” Ontario Plumbing apprenticeship basic level manual, October 2006, page 277

Note 5: 7.4.7.2 (1) (a) ...The minimum size clean-out opening shall be the same size as the drainage pipe...in the case of a sink waste pipe [cleanouts shall be spaced no further than] 6M apart
Mark Bajcar

AKdaplumba · 03-01-2010, 05:34 PM

How do you define "main stack" most load? most toilets?

evilcyrus · 03-01-2010, 11:06 PM

Furthest stack from street is main stack.. end of run. (most up stream) from what i understand . according to your sketch the inspector is right .. furthest stack has to be 4".

CTC-OPIA · 03-02-2010, 07:09 AM

In Ontario there is no definition of "Main Stack". The Sanitary Building Drain only must be 4" and ends at it's upstream end into a soil or waste stack served by a water closet, then if one is not available you can use a vent stack or waste stack (found in the body if the OBC2006), then if those are not available you move on to a branch or furthest fixture drain, this found in the definitions, which came from the National Plunbing Code of Canada during harmonization of the codes. In Ontario soil stacks and waste stack are defined separately. In the National Plumcibg Code of Canada there is only one definition - "soil-or-waste stack". No where does it state just the furthest stack or main stack.

MxNut · 03-06-2010, 07:47 AM

Should The building drain be the furthest stack? If I have a powderoom on the first floor and two bathrooms on the second floor,all three at the front of the house, but have a two piece roughing at the back of the house in the basement.
I am not going to run a 4 inch to the powderoom then vent my main stack all alone from the basement to open air.

If a river conducts water from the most upstream creek to the ocean, is the furthest creek the river? Not.
All the code means is the building drain conducts sanitary from the most upstream connection to the building sewer. It does not say that the building sewer IS the most upstream connection.

And if i am wrong , this means that as plumbers we are considered stupid.
We should be able to design our system according to the house. By telling me go to the furthest sanitary is making me nothing more than a cookie cutter plumber.

OldSchool · 03-06-2010, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffreyplumber

Our plumbing system is a lot differant than yours, we often times dont have a main stack, the new houses are all cut up there might be 3 bathrooms in different parts of the house with only a 2 inch vent serving each one, No main 3 or 4 inch stack, only old houses with all the plumbing grouped close by have a stack over 2 inch.
So out of your code what is the conclusion , Inspector was right or wrong?

We need at least a one 3" main vent stack..... any other vent penetrating the roof must be 3" this is required because of frost (any smaller vent pipe will freeze up with frost) ..... we are allowed to bring what ever size in the the attic but must increase vent size to 3" as we pass thru roof.

MxNut · 03-06-2010, 02:30 PM

We need 1, 3 inch stack going through the roof from the building drain. That is a no brainer. What the problem is that some say it has to be the most upstream sanitary. My upmost upstream sanitary may only be picking up a powderoom. If I want to end the building drain( my 4 inch) at a point in the middle of the house because that is where it goes up to serve 2 bathrooms then so be it. If in the back of the house there is a powderoom then I branch a 3 inch off the building drain to serve that.

MxNut · 03-06-2010, 02:48 PM

CTC OPIA your note 2 includes the words "or waste stack" that means a non sanitary stack. So by definition if my most upstream stack is a waste stack it must be designated as my building drain and therefore 4 inch.
This is where the interpretation of the definition is all wrong. All it means is that the building drain, drains sanitary stacks, waste stacks, branches and toilet fixture drains, from the umost upstream connection to itself then to the building sewer. Because the building drain by definition is horizontal only, all the definition means is that the building drain picks up all the branches( stacks or other) that are horizontal (or underground) and conveys them to the building sewer.
So i can designate any stack as my building drain as long as it conforms... 4 inch to the base, 3 inch to open air.

CTC-OPIA · 03-07-2010, 07:09 AM

The reason I stated "soil-or-waste stack" is because whe the codes across Canada did their so called "harmonization" - only Ontario defines a soil stack and waste stack separately and the definition in the OBC2006 uses the National Plumbing code of Canada's definition.

The main question is that does the sanitary building drain end in a soil-or-waste stack, yes - 3" to open air, does it need to be the powder room at the back of the house instead of the soil stack receiving two bathrooms at the front of the house - not any more.

MxNut · 03-07-2010, 10:15 AM

I agree with you , the problem I am having is we have an inspector who wants the building drain at the most upstream stack. Its totally illogical.

03-02-2010, 07:09 AM	#24
CTC-OPIA Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7 My Photos	In Ontario there is no definition of "Main Stack". The Sanitary Building Drain only must be 4" and ends at it's upstream end into a soil or waste stack served by a water closet, then if one is not available you can use a vent stack or waste stack (found in the body if the OBC2006), then if those are not available you move on to a branch or furthest fixture drain, this found in the definitions, which came from the National Plunbing Code of Canada during harmonization of the codes. In Ontario soil stacks and waste stack are defined separately. In the National Plumcibg Code of Canada there is only one definition - "soil-or-waste stack". No where does it state just the furthest stack or main stack. __________________ Plumbing 306A - since 1989, Plumbing Professor - MTCU, Certified Plumbing Systems Inspector (CPSI), OBC2006 Plumbing All-Buildings Certified, Member of the OPIA, MAPAC and ASPE

03-06-2010, 07:47 AM	#25
MxNut Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 4 My Photos	Building drain Should The building drain be the furthest stack? If I have a powderoom on the first floor and two bathrooms on the second floor,all three at the front of the house, but have a two piece roughing at the back of the house in the basement. I am not going to run a 4 inch to the powderoom then vent my main stack all alone from the basement to open air. If a river conducts water from the most upstream creek to the ocean, is the furthest creek the river? Not. All the code means is the building drain conducts sanitary from the most upstream connection to the building sewer. It does not say that the building sewer IS the most upstream connection. And if i am wrong , this means that as plumbers we are considered stupid. We should be able to design our system according to the house. By telling me go to the furthest sanitary is making me nothing more than a cookie cutter plumber.

03-06-2010, 02:30 PM	#27
MxNut Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 4 My Photos	Building drain We need 1, 3 inch stack going through the roof from the building drain. That is a no brainer. What the problem is that some say it has to be the most upstream sanitary. My upmost upstream sanitary may only be picking up a powderoom. If I want to end the building drain( my 4 inch) at a point in the middle of the house because that is where it goes up to serve 2 bathrooms then so be it. If in the back of the house there is a powderoom then I branch a 3 inch off the building drain to serve that.

03-06-2010, 02:48 PM	#28
MxNut Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 4 My Photos	CTC OPIA your note 2 includes the words "or waste stack" that means a non sanitary stack. So by definition if my most upstream stack is a waste stack it must be designated as my building drain and therefore 4 inch. This is where the interpretation of the definition is all wrong. All it means is that the building drain, drains sanitary stacks, waste stacks, branches and toilet fixture drains, from the umost upstream connection to itself then to the building sewer. Because the building drain by definition is horizontal only, all the definition means is that the building drain picks up all the branches( stacks or other) that are horizontal (or underground) and conveys them to the building sewer. So i can designate any stack as my building drain as long as it conforms... 4 inch to the base, 3 inch to open air. Last edited by MxNut; 03-06-2010 at 02:50 PM..

03-07-2010, 07:09 AM	#29
CTC-OPIA Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7 My Photos	The reason I stated "soil-or-waste stack" is because whe the codes across Canada did their so called "harmonization" - only Ontario defines a soil stack and waste stack separately and the definition in the OBC2006 uses the National Plumbing code of Canada's definition. The main question is that does the sanitary building drain end in a soil-or-waste stack, yes - 3" to open air, does it need to be the powder room at the back of the house instead of the soil stack receiving two bathrooms at the front of the house - not any more. __________________ Plumbing 306A - since 1989, Plumbing Professor - MTCU, Certified Plumbing Systems Inspector (CPSI), OBC2006 Plumbing All-Buildings Certified, Member of the OPIA, MAPAC and ASPE

03-01-2010, 05:34 PM	#22
AKdaplumba Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Vancouver BC Posts: 726 My Photos	How do you define "main stack" most load? most toilets?

03-01-2010, 11:06 PM	#23
evilcyrus Turbo Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ontario , Canada Posts: 100 My Photos	Furthest stack from street is main stack.. end of run. (most up stream) from what i understand . according to your sketch the inspector is right .. furthest stack has to be 4".

03-07-2010, 10:15 AM	#30
MxNut Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 4 My Photos	building drain I agree with you , the problem I am having is we have an inspector who wants the building drain at the most upstream stack. Its totally illogical.

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