sprinklertech

Combined systems for residential are far superior for a variety of reasons.

In an article "Residential Sprinkler Systems" found on the NIST website:

These systems are not designed to protect property but only prevent flashover so the occupant has more opportunity to escape.

As further evidence residential fire sprinklers are not installed to protect property as demonstrated by the water supply requirements contained in Chapter 6:

With a stored water supply all we need is 7 minutes for a single story dwelling less than 2000 sq. ft..

Residential sprinklers are not there to protect property but to save lives.

The thought is if nobody is in the building let it burn down.

If water is shut off for non-payment the thought is people are not going to live in the residence or, if they do, they are not going to stay there very long. Without water my wife can live in a house maybe four minutes.

In my opinion combined systems won't need the inspections normal systems do which is good because I just don't see inspections happening in a home.

Fireman Bob is not going to come into my home once a year without a warrant. For a residence Fireman Bob will not get a warrant.

Once installed residential sprinklers might go 30 years between inspections. How best to insure the water is always on and and the system is operational? Make it as simple as possible integrating it into the plumbing making it impossible to disable the fire sprinkler without shutting down water to the entire house. This serves as a built in alarm the system is not operational.

Think of it, a kid breaks a head in the bedroom and if the water can be stopped by shutting a sprinkler only valve that is what will be done. If the water stops why would the homeowner pay $200 for a new sprinkler when all he has to do is leave the valve closed? Right, he won't.

Mississippiplum

Thank you for the link and post it makes sense to me now, I can see the reasoning behind a combined system, we worked at a house last week that was 15 years old and the fire sprinkler system wasn't flushed or tested since the house was built, scary right, atleast with a combined system if a leak arises or a head brakes the homeowners are gonna have to fix it or they will be without water. And the sprinkler system is inavertanly maintained when work or maintaince is done on the domestic system.

__________________
''i would rather die on my knees with freedom then on my feet with no freedom"

sprinklertech

As part of my job I can perform inspections for fire sprinkler systems in accordance with NFPA 25 "Standard for the Inspection, Testing, and Maintenance of Water-Based Fire Protection Systems" and it is cut and dried what we are supposed to look for.

A short list:

1. Gauge pressure and change/calibrate gauges every five years.

On a residential system I don't think gauges are required on multipurpose systems. I am not totally sure on this, I had a busy day and I am to lazy to look it up, but I don't think they are required. If Gauges aren't there then there is nothing to inspect.

2. Main drain test.

The purpose of a main drain test is to detect blockage, such as a closed or partially closed, gate or control valve.

But a multipurpose system doesn't have a main drain so there is nothing to do.

3. Internal check valve inspection every five years.

On multipurpose systems there are no check valves to inspect.

4. Flow water through an inspectors test connection to test alarms.

On multipurpose systems there are no alarm requirements, you don't want any because every time someone flushed the toilet the waterflow switch would activate calling the fire department to our house. Since no alarms an inspectors test connection is not required so nothing to do here either.

5. Backflow inspection. If there is one its on plumbing so as far as sprinkler goes nothing to do here either.

6. Anti-Freeze systems are prohibited so nothing to do here.

For your information anti-freeze systems are allowed under the 2002 standard but were prohibited under the 2010 standard. The reason is obvious, the maintenance issue and the beauty of a multipurpose system is there is no maintenance!

If you were to call me in to perform an inspection on a combined system what would there be for me to do? The only thing I could do is walk around making sure the sprinklers hadn't been painted. If someone did require an inspection it would take me all of 4 minutes to walk around the house feeling like a rip off idiot.

The whole beauty of the combined systems is the nearly total lack of maintenance required. There isn't any that I can think of.

Ok, I had to check the gauge requirements and I was right.

You are not gong to find a dry system or pressure tank on a multipurpose system. No gauges required so nothing to check, calibrate or replace.

The only bad thing I can ever see happening is paint.

Mississippiplum, you mentioned "the fire sprinkler system wasn't flushed" and I thought I would mention flushing requirements of normal sprinkler systems.... there aren't any and in fact you don't want to flush a normal sprinkler system.

Most commercial systems are black steel pipe and you all know what would happen if you tried running domestic water through black steel pipe (wouldn't last very long) but it is different on sprinkler systems.

We don't have running water though our pipe unless there is a fire. Best thing you can do is fill the system with water, place it in service and leave it alone! By leave it alone I am talking 25, 35, 50 and 75 years leave it alone. Don't drain or flush it to "freshen it up" because it is the worst thing you can do.

Sprinkler water in black steel pipe will get real funky over time, the smell is distinctive and stains never come out but after a bit, a few months maybe, all the oxygen in the water is used up and it becomes an inert atmosphere. A metal rod placed in a very moist room with an atmosphere of 100% nitrogen will never rust, it takes oxygen.

The oldest system I ever worked on was for a wire factory built in 1913. When we took the pipe apart the inside looked as good as it did the day it was installed.

If a customer flushes his system with nice clean water every month he'll more than likely be replacing that system inside of five years.

Remember, funky water is good!

I am really off topic for this forum but you will have to pardon me because I am on a roll.

Flushing will remove the protection some specifically listed sprinkler pipe comes with to guard against MIC.

Like Dynaflow M-COAT by Allied Pipe

A nice product to have especially in areas like Mobile, Alabama where MIC is a real problem on sprinkler systems. But I know the M-COAT does not last forever and I remember reading in a Factory Mutual article it was good for about 50 system flushes and fill ups. 50 doesn't sound like much but once every 3 years and it will last a long time.

File this under the "for what it is worth" department.

Mississippiplum

Same goes with the black pipe on closed loop heating systems oxygen is bad, the house I mentioned had a copper riser but Idk what the rest of the system was plumbed with.

__________________
''i would rather die on my knees with freedom then on my feet with no freedom"

Paddy

Regarding sprinklertech's comments on inspecting and testing sprinkler systems, systems installed under IRC P2904 or NFPA 13D make them the owner's responsibility.

IRC P2904.7. "Instructions and signs. An owners manual for the fire sprinkler system shall be provided to the owner."

NFPA 13D, 4.2. "Maintenance. The installer shall provide to the owner/occupant instructions on inspecting, testing and maintaining the system."

The manuals come from the manufacturers and cover stuff like, "do not paint sprinklers or hang stuff from them" etc.

Regarding drain valves, multipurpose systems with a lot of standing water in branch lines should have drain valves. On plumbing-based systems, operating a plumbing fixture moves water through all of the water distribution pipe and there are no dead end branch lines, so every plumbing fixture is a drain.

The only caveat to owner-testing and maintenance is when systems have backflow preventers. Many water authorities require them on systems with dead end branch lines. They must be tested annually by certified technicians, which adds to the costs. That is just one of several reasons why I prefer plumbing-based systems over other multipurpose systems.

One note about pressure gauges. They are required on sysstems with backflow preventers, and they serve a good purpose. On such systems, water hammer can increase the pressure on the system side of the check valve. A friend in CA told me he saw gauges that hit 300 psi and burst. The solution to this problem is to install a relief valve on the system side, set to operate when the pressure exceeds the normal system pressure.

Plumbing-based systems do not have check valves, so the pressure from water hammer simply dissipates.

NewSchool

Thanks for the info. I am currently waiting on my test for the Texas residential fire suppression endorsement on my license. I took a 24 hr class ad am currently studying the NFPA13D for the test.

bobbyhutchinson

great thing to do, just think how many lives we can save

Paddy

People do not appreciate an important fact about how plumbing-based sprinklers make them much less expensive than traditional systems. In plumbing-based sprinkler systems, the cold water distribution pipe makes up for nearly one half of the pipe that is needed for the sprinklers. Every home will have cold water distribution pipe whether sprinklers are installed or not. Being a portion of the cold water distribution pipe makes sprinklers much less expensive than opponents claim. I am doing a "side by side" analysis of a home that will document this fact.

damnplumber

If you don't pay your fire insurance bill... you have no coverage hince you you don't pay your water bill ... no protection just my 2-cents

Paddy

True, that. The lack of running water renders a home uninhabitable. There is no duty to provide sprinkler protection to people who occupy an uninhabitable home, just as there is no duty to provide them with potable water.