Lead Free Brass -- Easy to Crack? - Plumbing Zone

rocksteady · 06-23-2010, 06:48 PM

I went out to replace a fairly new (1 month old) Red/White ball valve today. I installed this, along with 17 other lead free ball valves at a winery 3-4 weeks ago and this one had split. I was told by one of the guys at the supply house that the new lead free brass has bismuth in it and is more brittle. The MIP was not bottomed out and I don't think it was overtightened. At least it was no tighter than I always installed the old ball valves with lead in them. Obviously it was too tight for what it could handle but was this a weak valve or a characteristic of the new Ca./Va. brass? Have you guys that have lead-free valves found the new brass to be more brittle?

Paul

DUNBAR PLUMBING · 06-23-2010, 06:57 PM

Damn....

All the f-ing problems with this brass in the past 10 years is ridiculous.

Going lead free, **** loaded with impurities, trying to cheapen because of volume...

Back in the 40's when I served two tours when I swam the english channel we could install brass fittings and they were golden; didn't break, didn't crack, didn't do anything but last.

Redwood · 06-23-2010, 08:33 PM

The lead component of the brass was to improve its machining properties...

Part of that could include the brittleness of the material or it may not have been machined properly causing a defect...

Ron · 06-23-2010, 09:01 PM

Looks like a good valve to me I don't see no crack.

TheMaster · 06-23-2010, 09:05 PM

Looks like just a few threads left.....it was tight

Plumbworker · 06-23-2010, 09:14 PM

Thats looks like a chinese red and white valve

i've seen those at my supplier never seen a yellow handle R&W valve but i have seen green handle its made in china .. I only install the red handle TOYO Red & White valves made in italy (lead free)..

**ILPlumber** · 06-23-2010, 09:45 PM

Jomar valve?

Maybe the MPT was out of spec????

Maybe you got a bad valve???

Maybe it was put in a bind??

Maybe.......

rocksteady · 06-23-2010, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plumbworker

Thats looks like a chinese red and white valve

i've seen those at my supplier never seen a yellow handle R&W valve but i have seen green handle its made in china .. I only install the red handle TOYO Red & White valves made in italy (lead free)..

I was under the impression that these particular valves were made in Italy, not China.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt

Jomar valve? no

Maybe the MPT was out of spec???? maybe

Maybe you got a bad valve??? I'm thinking that's what happened

Maybe it was put in a bind?? I am not blind

but...

Maybe.......

There are a few threads left but it was by no means TIGHT. It is a good 1 1/2 turns from being bottomed out in the valve, you can feel at least 2 threads inside the valve.

I know the reason it cracked at the most basic level is that is was too tight but my question is this. Do these valves, and other products made with lead free brass, need to be babied when it comes to male/female connections? Or, was this a bad valve and just destined to fail due to a manufacturing flaw? Within a quarter turn, this was installed the same as I've done them for the last 15 years.

Paul

David Sheffield · 06-30-2010, 12:17 AM

Is this a sand casting or a forged valve? Forged Italian Valves are the strongest and highest quality, but more expensive. What is the country of origin on your valves?

David Sheffield · 06-30-2010, 12:29 AM

Is it leaking at the joint or the end connector? The loctite or glue that seals the body sections holds it together could be leaking

06-23-2010, 06:48 PM	#1
rocksteady Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Paso Robles, Ca. Posts: 2,511 My Photos	Lead Free Brass -- Easy to Crack? I went out to replace a fairly new (1 month old) Red/White ball valve today. I installed this, along with 17 other lead free ball valves at a winery 3-4 weeks ago and this one had split. I was told by one of the guys at the supply house that the new lead free brass has bismuth in it and is more brittle. The MIP was not bottomed out and I don't think it was overtightened. At least it was no tighter than I always installed the old ball valves with lead in them. Obviously it was too tight for what it could handle but was this a weak valve or a characteristic of the new Ca./Va. brass? Have you guys that have lead-free valves found the new brass to be more brittle? Paul __________________ Rocksteady Plumbing Serving San Luis Obispo County (805) 237-7625 (ROCK) http://rocksteadyplumbing.com/

06-23-2010, 06:57 PM	#2
DUNBAR PLUMBING www.DunbarPlumbing.com Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: NORTHERN KENTUCKY - GREATER CINCINNATI AREA Posts: 4,495 My Photos	Damn.... All the f-ing problems with this brass in the past 10 years is ridiculous. Going lead free, ** loaded with impurities, trying to cheapen because of volume... Back in the 40's when I served two tours when I swam the english channel we could install brass fittings and they were golden; didn't break, didn't crack, didn't do anything but last. __________________ Northern Kentucky Plumbers \|YOUTUBE VIDEOS\| Twitter Feed \| DUNBAR PLUMBING FAN PAGE**

06-23-2010, 08:33 PM	#3
Redwood jA-Rod dat u? Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Connecticut Posts: 9,252 My Photos	The lead component of the brass was to improve its machining properties... Part of that could include the brittleness of the material or it may not have been machined properly causing a defect... __________________ *"Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power."* ~Benito Mussolini~ Lloyd Blankfein for President 2012 - Save Money Cut Out The Middleman! 411 Plumb Appliance Stimulus Package

06-23-2010, 09:14 PM	#6
Plumbworker Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 535 My Photos	Thats looks like a chinese red and white valve i've seen those at my supplier never seen a yellow handle R&W valve but i have seen green handle its made in china .. I only install the red handle TOYO Red & White valves made in italy (lead free).. Last edited by Plumbworker; 06-23-2010 at 09:14 PM.. Reason: typo

06-30-2010, 12:29 AM	#10
David Sheffield Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 5 My Photos	Is it leaking at the joint or the end connector? The loctite or glue that seals the body sections holds it together could be leaking Last edited by David Sheffield; 07-01-2010 at 02:00 PM..

06-23-2010, 09:01 PM	#4
Ron Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 8,635 My Photos	Looks like a good valve to me I don't see no crack.

06-23-2010, 09:05 PM	#5
TheMaster Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 6,437 My Photos	Looks like just a few threads left.....it was tight

06-23-2010, 09:45 PM	#7
ILPlumber Moderator Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: IL Posts: 5,312 My Photos	Jomar valve? Maybe the MPT was out of spec???? Maybe you got a bad valve??? Maybe it was put in a bind?? Maybe.......

06-30-2010, 12:17 AM	#9
David Sheffield Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 5 My Photos	Is this a sand casting or a forged valve? Forged Italian Valves are the strongest and highest quality, but more expensive. What is the country of origin on your valves?

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