I am not just an old grouch - Page 4 - Plumbing Zone

nhmaster3015 · 09-03-2010, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RW Plumbing

It's really a chicken or egg type thing. When you give people a number of 700-1000 to repipe water distribution in pex or, 1700-2300 in copper it is easier to justify the pex. People as why it is so much more expensive but the pipe is 2-3 times the cost and it takes longer to install. I agree that copper is a better product but, people don't want to spend that kind of money. I need every job I can get, and I can't afford to justify an extra 500+ dollars to run a vent from a basement through the roof not to mention drywall repairs and such.

It is much better to throw an AAV in and get the job. There are still people that will take copper over PEX and the vent run over an AAV they recognize quality, but this day in age, those people are few and far between.

So you are only in plumbing for the money then?

Willing to justify and install inferior and frankly crappy materials?

Now I'm back to being an old grouch again

RealLivePlumber · 09-03-2010, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RW Plumbing

It's really a chicken or egg type thing. When you give people a number of 700-1000 to repipe water distribution in pex or, 1700-2300 in copper it is easier to justify the pex. People as why it is so much more expensive but the pipe is 2-3 times the cost and it takes longer to install. I agree that copper is a better product but, people don't want to spend that kind of money. I need every job I can get, and I can't afford to justify an extra 500+ dollars to run a vent from a basement through the roof not to mention drywall repairs and such.

It is much better to throw an AAV in and get the job. There are still people that will take copper over PEX and the vent run over an AAV they recognize quality, but this day in age, those people are few and far between.

TheMaster · 09-03-2010, 05:14 PM

I'll use an aav...pex....a sharkbite. I'm not turning down a job because a guy wants an AAV instead of me slicing his house apart.

Make no mistake about it.....I'm all about the money.

stillaround · 09-03-2010, 07:01 PM

Whats better for everyone? ..not just the plumber...because this question gets avoided makes the 1st premise harder to see.

Herk · 09-03-2010, 07:05 PM

I'm glad this thread got resurrected because I'd like to address some of the points made.

About the ph of water in Idaho - our water is obviously not that bad. I have seen an occasional well that produces serious problems in a relatively short time, but overall, copper holds up pretty well here. I didn't say that all copper is getting pinholes, I said I've seen it happen for unknown reasons. For many years, I plumbed houses in copper with no problems at all - and so far as I know, they still don't have any problems, even after the 35 years I've been in business.

Yes, price is a serious consideration. No, I don't charge 4 times as much for a PEX repair, I charge 4 times as much for a repair in copper, even though I still have to use a couple of sweat fittings on the ends of the PEX. But putting in a bid for copper plumbing when PEX is working just fine in new homes seems a bit odd to me. Wanting the job to take longer so you can be paid for more hours is not what I consider honest work. And as to galvanized pipe, you might have a hard time finding faucets these days that don't have some problems with the rust. I really hate galvanized pipe and the damage it does.

And Steve, water expands 9% when it freezes, not 100 to 1000 times. However, a copper pipe is likely to freeze and thaw about three times before it actually bursts, with the burst section stretching a little bit with each freeze.

An AAV is great when the customer cannot afford the repair at all and the roof is 20 years past needing replaced and the area from the fixture to the roof is impossible to get through without major demolition. Idaho, at least my side of it, is a very poor state with little industry and there are lots of rich folks somewhere but not here. Social Security doesn't take rising plumbing costs into consideration. If you folks knew how many unvented kitchen sinks and other fixtures I see here, you'd be amazed. Back in the 'good old daze' anyone who could get their hands on a set of threaders was a plumber. I've seen houses plumbed more recently with galvanized water lines because the brothers didn't know how to solder.

As I've said, I'd love to see an enforced code, but there are not enough inspectors nor a harsh enough law here to get it done. I often run into newer houses that were plumbed in the countryside with no inspections or permits. I've also seen flipped houses that are obviously not inspected. There are lots of handymen and remodelers and the sky's the limit.

And, yet another peeve, ever since "modular homes" are sold as "you bought a house!" and yet have no serious code requirements, it's difficult to understand why the house next door does have them. The Cheaping Down of America is a sad thing to watch, but it's also a sign of the times. Driving around my fair city, I see old buildings that were pretty impressive in their time, if buildings under three stories can be impressive, and yet, that kind of construction hasn't happened here for nearly a hundred years. For some reason, those things could be built then, but now it's just cheap junk by comparison.

I don't have a lot of hope for our industry. A low-wage, nearly slave nation doesn't have room for real professionals. Free markets and cheap labor is the watchword of the day.

Today, I gave a price on a "budget" toilet replacement. "My husband and I will do it ourselves," said the lady, who probably lives off the rentals rather than putting any of it back into the property. "He's already done it three or four times at our house."

RW Plumbing · 09-03-2010, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nhmaster3015

So you are only in plumbing for the money then?

Willing to justify and install inferior and frankly crappy materials?

Now I'm back to being an old grouch again

No, I'm in plumbing for the prestige and satisfaction of a job well done.

Of course I'm in in for the money. I explain the options to the customer that an AAV can fail and the such, and let THEM decide. After all it is their house, and they are the ones paying the bills. Every thing we install has a plus and a minus side.

It is YOUR opinion that AAV's are crap and that you don't like PEX. It really depends on who you talk to. For me they are handy for someone adding fixtures in a basement or something where a vent is unavailable.

Plumbing is just a job man. The second plumbing no longer provides income for myself and my family, I will move onto something else.

**Bill** · 09-03-2010, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 22rifle

The ones in a mobile home are cheap crap and are a completely different animal than the Studor vents, etc.

Here the type used in a trailer are against code, but the Studor vent is acceptable

nhmaster3015 · 09-03-2010, 11:17 PM

so you are letting the customer decide what is better? Aren't you the guy with the license and the knowledge? What the hell does a cutomer know? If you give a customer the choice between cheap and expensive what do you suppose they will choose...................every time.

Don The Plumber · 09-04-2010, 09:53 AM

I agree 100% that AAV's are cheapening our trade, due to excessive use. I do all repair & remodel plumbing, & I don't care what anyone says, but in my experiences of over 30yrs, it simply aint practical, in half the circumstances, to run an atmospheric vent to outside, unless you only work in ranch style houses.

And even then, if your adding a basement bathroom, it aint no picnic fishing a revent through a wall, & customers simply are not gonna tear up places they don't plan on remodeling, or just got done remodeling, to run a vent. And don't tell me about running through a closet either, I think that is hack plbg too.

In a perfect world, where every customer had unlimited budgets, & wanted everything done 1st class, I'm all for running a vent to outside, no matter what it takes. I agree an atmospheric vent is 10000000000 times better than an AAV. But this aint a perfect world.

Atleast an AAV allows me to do my work, up to current code, at a reasonable cost, & I'm not limited to placement of fixtures. I believe most of the air movement is along the top of drain pipes anyway, & like alot of you showed in other threads, the drains will work with no vent.

Every job I have installed an AAV in, had atleast 1 or more VTR, so I don't think its a big deal, or cheapens the plumbing system. And if they go bad, unscrew it, & install a new one. But I've only seen 2 or 3 go bad, in the last 10yrs or so.

Now I'm talkin remodel here. If your building new, or have "reasonable" access to outside, then I will always run VTR. I think in those circumstances VTR should be required. Hard to enforce though.

TheMaster · 09-04-2010, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nhmaster3015

so you are letting the customer decide what is better? Aren't you the guy with the license and the knowledge? What the hell does a cutomer know? If you give a customer the choice between cheap and expensive what do you suppose they will choose...................every time.

No I dont let the customer decide whats better. I explain the differences and let them decide what they want to pay for. It all looks good from my house.
Not all customers pick the cheap way,however most do. So what.

09-03-2010, 07:01 PM	#34
stillaround Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,215 My Photos	Whats better for everyone? ..not just the plumber...because this question gets avoided makes the 1st premise harder to see. __________________ Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them. Ronald Reagan

09-03-2010, 07:05 PM	#35
Herk Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: S.E. Idaho Posts: 800 My Photos	I'm glad this thread got resurrected because I'd like to address some of the points made. About the ph of water in Idaho - our water is obviously not that bad. I have seen an occasional well that produces serious problems in a relatively short time, but overall, copper holds up pretty well here. I didn't say that all copper is getting pinholes, I said I've seen it happen for unknown reasons. For many years, I plumbed houses in copper with no problems at all - and so far as I know, they still don't have any problems, even after the 35 years I've been in business. Yes, price is a serious consideration. No, I don't charge 4 times as much for a PEX repair, I charge 4 times as much for a repair in copper, even though I still have to use a couple of sweat fittings on the ends of the PEX. But putting in a bid for copper plumbing when PEX is working just fine in new homes seems a bit odd to me. Wanting the job to take longer so you can be paid for more hours is not what I consider honest work. And as to galvanized pipe, you might have a hard time finding faucets these days that don't have some problems with the rust. I really hate galvanized pipe and the damage it does. And Steve, water expands 9% when it freezes, not 100 to 1000 times. However, a copper pipe is likely to freeze and thaw about three times before it actually bursts, with the burst section stretching a little bit with each freeze. An AAV is great when the customer cannot afford the repair at all and the roof is 20 years past needing replaced and the area from the fixture to the roof is impossible to get through without major demolition. Idaho, at least my side of it, is a very poor state with little industry and there are lots of rich folks somewhere but not here. Social Security doesn't take rising plumbing costs into consideration. If you folks knew how many unvented kitchen sinks and other fixtures I see here, you'd be amazed. Back in the 'good old daze' anyone who could get their hands on a set of threaders was a plumber. I've seen houses plumbed more recently with galvanized water lines because the brothers didn't know how to solder. As I've said, I'd love to see an enforced code, but there are not enough inspectors nor a harsh enough law here to get it done. I often run into newer houses that were plumbed in the countryside with no inspections or permits. I've also seen flipped houses that are obviously not inspected. There are lots of handymen and remodelers and the sky's the limit. And, yet another peeve, ever since "modular homes" are sold as "you bought a house!" and yet have no serious code requirements, it's difficult to understand why the house next door does have them. The Cheaping Down of America is a sad thing to watch, but it's also a sign of the times. Driving around my fair city, I see old buildings that were pretty impressive in their time, if buildings under three stories can be impressive, and yet, that kind of construction hasn't happened here for nearly a hundred years. For some reason, those things could be built then, but now it's just cheap junk by comparison. I don't have a lot of hope for our industry. A low-wage, nearly slave nation doesn't have room for real professionals. Free markets and cheap labor is the watchword of the day. Today, I gave a price on a "budget" toilet replacement. "My husband and I will do it ourselves," said the lady, who probably lives off the rentals rather than putting any of it back into the property. "He's already done it three or four times at our house." Last edited by Herk; 09-03-2010 at 07:06 PM.. Reason: clarity

09-03-2010, 11:17 PM	#38
nhmaster3015 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: S. Maine Posts: 2,057 My Photos	so you are letting the customer decide what is better? Aren't you the guy with the license and the knowledge? What the hell does a cutomer know? If you give a customer the choice between cheap and expensive what do you suppose they will choose...................every time. __________________ So little time, so many asses to kick Protect your trade, think before you buy

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09-03-2010, 05:14 PM	#33
TheMaster Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 6,437 My Photos	I'll use an aav...pex....a sharkbite. I'm not turning down a job because a guy wants an AAV instead of me slicing his house apart. Make no mistake about it.....I'm all about the money.

09-04-2010, 09:53 AM	#39
Don The Plumber Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 400 My Photos	I agree 100% that AAV's are cheapening our trade, due to excessive use. I do all repair & remodel plumbing, & I don't care what anyone says, but in my experiences of over 30yrs, it simply aint practical, in half the circumstances, to run an atmospheric vent to outside, unless you only work in ranch style houses. And even then, if your adding a basement bathroom, it aint no picnic fishing a revent through a wall, & customers simply are not gonna tear up places they don't plan on remodeling, or just got done remodeling, to run a vent. And don't tell me about running through a closet either, I think that is hack plbg too. In a perfect world, where every customer had unlimited budgets, & wanted everything done 1st class, I'm all for running a vent to outside, no matter what it takes. I agree an atmospheric vent is 10000000000 times better than an AAV. But this aint a perfect world. Atleast an AAV allows me to do my work, up to current code, at a reasonable cost, & I'm not limited to placement of fixtures. I believe most of the air movement is along the top of drain pipes anyway, & like alot of you showed in other threads, the drains will work with no vent. Every job I have installed an AAV in, had atleast 1 or more VTR, so I don't think its a big deal, or cheapens the plumbing system. And if they go bad, unscrew it, & install a new one. But I've only seen 2 or 3 go bad, in the last 10yrs or so. Now I'm talkin remodel here. If your building new, or have "reasonable" access to outside, then I will always run VTR. I think in those circumstances VTR should be required. Hard to enforce though.