I am not just an old grouch - Page 3 - Plumbing Zone

DUNBAR PLUMBING · 02-10-2009, 11:45 PM

When I get a call for a water service leak?

90% are plastic water line rupture, snap-off, separation immediately after the connection

When I get a call for a leak on a supply riser at a home?

Most times it is a PEX riser, a white vinyl braided hose with plastic inserts. If it is chrome-copper riser, it's always the compression ferrule that's leaking.

Since I'm an emergency service plumber,

The industry moved to CPVC in my area about 10-15 years ago and when these pipe fittings fail, it's disasterous. It's always abrupt, sometimes violent acting when it does give away. I've never seen or heard a 3/4" Female Adaptor flood a house because someone was at the movies and enjoyed their day away.

So if you want to bash copper for freezing and not holding up,

Why is it the piping's fault when someone hasn't properly insulated their home? Ice expands? What is it, 100-1000 times its size when it grows? How durable do you want type M copper to be?

If you have a wall with frozen water lines, copper will rupture and pinpoint the break, if PEX freezes you have top open that wall completely to unthaw it, or just tell the customer good luck and wait till it thaws. Someone mentioned hair dryer but who's going to pay that plumber to hair dry a wall?

Are plumbers going to have to carry torpedo heaters into the home, heat the house up without opening the walls to unthaw pipes now? You know the heat was already 72 degrees already.

I couldn't unthaw some plastic water services this year because you can't; it's in the ground and you can't use thaw machines because they do not conduct electricity.

When I get called for an emergency water leak, where damage is created and people are frantic,

why......is it always closely associated to plastic products most times.

I'm preaching to choir here, I understand that, no problem.

I speak solely from the down the road perspective like I always do. I don't jump on bandwagons for any reason whatsoever. I've had to many plastic drain lines crack and bust abruptly, plastic water lines bust/crack/rupture/divide/split in such a unexpected way that almost every customer is alerted to the problem like they had no clue it was coming.

Copper leaks are usually always gradual, just like galvanized piping. Cast iron is the same way, takes a long time to happen, usually gives the end user some ample time to make a decision to decide what's best for them.

Every time I set a plastic closet flange, I know damn right well that someday that flange will turn a nice shade of light brown, be brittle and eventually crack at the closet bolt slots, it's guaranteed. Brass closet flanges were built for the long haul, indeed. Copper DWV systems lasted years before select trap arms like the kitchen sink, the toilet arm lost their way to what runs through them, acidic bases. I've wrote enough, but the bottom line, us plumbers do not think alike when it comes to what is valued in product choices, and which products affects the ones that line our pockets everyday.

Killertoiletspider · 02-10-2009, 11:55 PM

It amazes me to no end the number of small contractors in any trade that continue to use home centers as their main source of material, knowing full well that they are doing little more than funding their own competition. I also know that the common excuse for small shops is that they get better pricing from them, but I have to ask, what difference does it make? The customer is ultimately paying for the material, and they have no clue what you paid for it, so you are helping out a business that is looking to steal your customers for what? Perhaps 5 dollars in profit?

DUNBAR PLUMBING · 02-11-2009, 12:11 AM

I can't understand if you are for this move by some, or against it.

I "try" to spend money at these local mom&pop hardware stores but their pricing is through the roof, and they justify it because the big box store is right down the road, and they justify the higher charge to keep in business.

Like a sympathy rule that we accept if we buy there.

The problem lies with them that they just don't have the inventory that offers "everything" that you like to have when you are making multiple purchases, getting it all in one place.

Explain what you mean in your statement.

Killertoiletspider · 02-11-2009, 12:18 AM

You don't have a wholesaler near by or access to a company like Barnett Brass that serves the trade?

DUNBAR PLUMBING · 02-11-2009, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killertoiletspider

You don't have a wholesaler near by or access to a company like Barnett Brass that serves the trade?

Yes. I buy from Barnett's, I bought from both a specialty plumbing supply today, along with a regular plumbing supply.

But in a quick move I also bought at Ace Hardware today as well. 2 supply houses in total, one local hardware store.

I'm loyal to no one in particular because I buy on the fly.

I'm already losing money being a smiling face in a supply house/hardware store to begin with, today was unusual to frequent 3 in one day.

The Ace Hardware pumps my tax dollars back into my community, the other two did not...Barnett's serves Florida's entirely.

Takes 20 minutes to get to either of those supply houses, barnett's is 24 hour shipping/next day and Ace hardware is 5 minutes if I blow through 2 stop signs and one red light.

Plumbergeek · 09-01-2010, 08:23 PM

I am guilty of purchasing from the big box stores but only due to necessity. We have 2 plumbing supply houses in my town that carry next to nothing for the service plumbers, besides the quality of their materials is lacking (i.e. china) They also will sell directly to the homeowner for the SAME price they sell to me!

I hardly ever sell a Kitchen/Lav faucet because the customer wants to go pick one out themselves, which I install with NO Warranty..... If I do sell one with my small mark-up I guarantee I will be explaining my price to the husband that night because he saw the same on at Lowes/HD for a lot less!
Now here is the killer in all this, our local RE Michel sells HVAC equipment/parts and will never sell to homeowners or me as I am not HVAC licensed, but they will sell water heaters to the HVAC guys all day long

In Georgia only LMP can install water heater, don't know about yalls code.
Frustrated in Georgia

nhmaster3015 · 09-01-2010, 09:34 PM

Man, this thread is so old it must be past the statute of limitations

Plumbergeek · 09-01-2010, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nhmaster3015

Man, this thread is so old it must be past the statute of limitations

LOL, just noticed that! Well, it's still relevant so start it back up

RW Plumbing · 09-01-2010, 10:15 PM

It's really a chicken or egg type thing. When you give people a number of 700-1000 to repipe water distribution in pex or, 1700-2300 in copper it is easier to justify the pex. People as why it is so much more expensive but the pipe is 2-3 times the cost and it takes longer to install. I agree that copper is a better product but, people don't want to spend that kind of money. I need every job I can get, and I can't afford to justify an extra 500+ dollars to run a vent from a basement through the roof not to mention drywall repairs and such.

It is much better to throw an AAV in and get the job. There are still people that will take copper over PEX and the vent run over an AAV they recognize quality, but this day in age, those people are few and far between.

Associated Plum · 09-02-2010, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herk

Everybody knows that plumbers are too expensive.

Feelings are no different today than they were in the 1880's

02-10-2009, 11:45 PM	#21
DUNBAR PLUMBING www.DunbarPlumbing.com Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: NORTHERN KENTUCKY - GREATER CINCINNATI AREA Posts: 4,495 My Photos	When I get a call for a water service leak? 90% are plastic water line rupture, snap-off, separation immediately after the connection When I get a call for a leak on a supply riser at a home? Most times it is a PEX riser, a white vinyl braided hose with plastic inserts. If it is chrome-copper riser, it's always the compression ferrule that's leaking. Since I'm an emergency service plumber, The industry moved to CPVC in my area about 10-15 years ago and when these pipe fittings fail, it's disasterous. It's always abrupt, sometimes violent acting when it does give away. I've never seen or heard a 3/4" Female Adaptor flood a house because someone was at the movies and enjoyed their day away. So if you want to bash copper for freezing and not holding up, Why is it the piping's fault when someone hasn't properly insulated their home? Ice expands? What is it, 100-1000 times its size when it grows? How durable do you want type M copper to be? If you have a wall with frozen water lines, copper will rupture and pinpoint the break, if PEX freezes you have top open that wall completely to unthaw it, or just tell the customer good luck and wait till it thaws. Someone mentioned hair dryer but who's going to pay that plumber to hair dry a wall? Are plumbers going to have to carry torpedo heaters into the home, heat the house up without opening the walls to unthaw pipes now? You know the heat was already 72 degrees already. I couldn't unthaw some plastic water services this year because you can't; it's in the ground and you can't use thaw machines because they do not conduct electricity. When I get called for an emergency water leak, where damage is created and people are frantic, why......is it always closely associated to plastic products most times. I'm preaching to choir here, I understand that, no problem. I speak solely from the down the road perspective like I always do. I don't jump on bandwagons for any reason whatsoever. I've had to many plastic drain lines crack and bust abruptly, plastic water lines bust/crack/rupture/divide/split in such a unexpected way that almost every customer is alerted to the problem like they had no clue it was coming. Copper leaks are usually always gradual, just like galvanized piping. Cast iron is the same way, takes a long time to happen, usually gives the end user some ample time to make a decision to decide what's best for them. Every time I set a plastic closet flange, I know damn right well that someday that flange will turn a nice shade of light brown, be brittle and eventually crack at the closet bolt slots, it's guaranteed. Brass closet flanges were built for the long haul, indeed. Copper DWV systems lasted years before select trap arms like the kitchen sink, the toilet arm lost their way to what runs through them, acidic bases. I've wrote enough, but the bottom line, us plumbers do not think alike when it comes to what is valued in product choices, and which products affects the ones that line our pockets everyday. __________________ Northern Kentucky Plumbers *\|YOUTUBE VIDEOS\| Twitter Feed \| DUNBAR PLUMBING FAN PAGE*

02-11-2009, 12:11 AM	#23
DUNBAR PLUMBING www.DunbarPlumbing.com Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: NORTHERN KENTUCKY - GREATER CINCINNATI AREA Posts: 4,495 My Photos	I can't understand if you are for this move by some, or against it. I "try" to spend money at these local mom&pop hardware stores but their pricing is through the roof, and they justify it because the big box store is right down the road, and they justify the higher charge to keep in business. Like a sympathy rule that we accept if we buy there. The problem lies with them that they just don't have the inventory that offers "everything" that you like to have when you are making multiple purchases, getting it all in one place. Explain what you mean in your statement. __________________ Northern Kentucky Plumbers *\|YOUTUBE VIDEOS\| Twitter Feed \| DUNBAR PLUMBING FAN PAGE*

09-01-2010, 08:23 PM	#26
Plumbergeek Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: SW Georgia Posts: 132 My Photos	I am guilty of purchasing from the big box stores but only due to necessity. We have 2 plumbing supply houses in my town that carry next to nothing for the service plumbers, besides the quality of their materials is lacking (i.e. china) They also will sell directly to the homeowner for the SAME price they sell to me! I hardly ever sell a Kitchen/Lav faucet because the customer wants to go pick one out themselves, which I install with NO Warranty..... If I do sell one with my small mark-up I guarantee I will be explaining my price to the husband that night because he saw the same on at Lowes/HD for a lot less! Now here is the killer in all this, our local RE Michel sells HVAC equipment/parts and will never sell to homeowners or me as I am not HVAC licensed, but they will sell water heaters to the HVAC guys all day long In Georgia only LMP can install water heater, don't know about yalls code. Frustrated in Georgia __________________

09-01-2010, 09:34 PM	#27
nhmaster3015 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: S. Maine Posts: 2,057 My Photos	Man, this thread is so old it must be past the statute of limitations __________________ So little time, so many asses to kick Protect your trade, think before you buy

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02-10-2009, 11:55 PM	#22
Killertoiletspider Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,411 My Photos	It amazes me to no end the number of small contractors in any trade that continue to use home centers as their main source of material, knowing full well that they are doing little more than funding their own competition. I also know that the common excuse for small shops is that they get better pricing from them, but I have to ask, what difference does it make? The customer is ultimately paying for the material, and they have no clue what you paid for it, so you are helping out a business that is looking to steal your customers for what? Perhaps 5 dollars in profit?

02-11-2009, 12:18 AM	#24
Killertoiletspider Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,411 My Photos	You don't have a wholesaler near by or access to a company like Barnett Brass that serves the trade?

09-01-2010, 10:15 PM	#29
RW Plumbing Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 863 My Photos	It's really a chicken or egg type thing. When you give people a number of 700-1000 to repipe water distribution in pex or, 1700-2300 in copper it is easier to justify the pex. People as why it is so much more expensive but the pipe is 2-3 times the cost and it takes longer to install. I agree that copper is a better product but, people don't want to spend that kind of money. I need every job I can get, and I can't afford to justify an extra 500+ dollars to run a vent from a basement through the roof not to mention drywall repairs and such. It is much better to throw an AAV in and get the job. There are still people that will take copper over PEX and the vent run over an AAV they recognize quality, but this day in age, those people are few and far between.