I am not just an old grouch - Plumbing Zone

nhmaster3015 · 02-07-2009, 03:12 PM

I know that a lot of the topics and or products that I get on a rant about seem like I am just an old timer that is against new stuff. But here's the real reason why I am against some of this stuff.

Shark Bites. product integrity aside. And we can argue O rings all day long. My big concern with them is that they allow a home owner to quickly and easily hack into the potable water system for god knows whatever reason. Possibly leading to cross contamination and or backflow. Yes he could do it to a copper or pex fitting also but it requires special tools and a bit of knowledge and may be enough to deter his actions.

AAV's It again is a mechanical device that up till a few years ago there was no need for. We always managed to properly vent fixtures without this abomonation and when you get down to it, isn't that what we get paid for? Also same homeowner cabal as sharkbites. An easy way to accomplish something that may very well pose a health problem.

Pex. I'm a little waffeley here because my company uses hundreds of thousands of feet of this stuff a year. Mostly for radiant, but we do do quite a few re-pipes and repairs with it also. Again, with the purchase of a 35 dollar crimper for Watts Pex, any uneducated homeowner can again cause huge problems. Also I am beginning to become very concerned with product liability here as I am beginning to see more and more lawsuits and discussions about restriction, flow rate, chlorene degradation, rodent damage, UV damage and, well all the same stuff that torpedoed Polybutylene. I won't quit using it just yet, but I will not be surprized if the day comes when I have to.

Tankless water heaters: if you add up the SFU in most any residence you will quickly see that a normal sized tankless water heater does not meet code. That local inspectors are willing to give them a pass is a result of the "green" hysteria that has gripped our nation.

As professional, licensed plumbers we have a responsibility to more than just the dollar. Many of the new products get to the marketplace because the code committees are populated with whores willing to sell out the trade for manufacturing kickbacks and bribes. It is ultimatly up to us to make informed, intelligent decisions as to the products we peddle. Just because something is code approved does not make it a good product. Remember that PolyButylene is still on the acceptable water piping list.

DUNBAR PLUMBING · 02-08-2009, 01:05 AM

I've been preaching the same warnings for years and even though some of it is falling on deaf ears,

I'm watching products that came with strength, only to disappear and become a property owner's headache.

My visit to home depot tonight confirmed the obvious; All Zurn brass fittings for PEX was pulled off their shelves, all of it.

Now it's QESTPEX...the stuff that was around years ago with primarily all plastic fittings.

I'm going to stop myself right here because I've made it clear about some of the things I won't touch in this profession.

Does anyone want to put up a wager against mine that in the next 5-9 years, one of the well known PEX mfgs. will be subject to lawsuits due to product defect?

Product liability lawsuits are only when the product fails to live to it's life expectancy, or it's use causes indirect property damage, piping failure as a result.

Back in the 80's and 90's, PB, Blue-MAX, Failing Dip tubes were all found out, but not on the internet. With PEX being so popular now in installation practices, its time here in the states is a rolling time clock, and now we'll have the ability to hear and know the plumbers, the contractors that use the products and how they hold up as the time stamp grows.

Has anyone, anyone figured out how and why we dont have plumbers on this forum, any forum on the internet AFAIK, not talking about how they installed a product they felt was so awesome, was the bestest in the world, and then went in failure mode? And then the piping they installed, similar to the product came out, is failing now as well?

And it's starting to show up in Texas, same material.

We are embarking upon a different track record in history now because if any of these products that are highly used in the plumbing profession are used, and widely talked about in their use,

there's going to be plenty of informational data on the internet of those with plumbing companies, those who installed it that will be forever etched into the 4 walls of the internet proclaiming their use, unlike the former class action lawsuits.

So, the sharkbites I use less than 20 a year gets me into a debacle when and if a lawsuit becomes of it, my statements online would very well incriminate me of being liable. It's amazing to know how easily it is to find information about yourself on the internet.

Amazing how easily it would be for the lawyer who wants as much money as possible to go after those who installed defective, faulty plumbing systems.

Don't rule it out; the internet age is always evolving and I'm sure there's software systems that can be built to follow ISP's, IP's, usernames, locations, reference to phone numbers or addresses.

Just a passing thought...

Why is the UPC/NPC/IPC passing the use of these failing materials? You tell me. I'd say it is evident that the materials are used on a running start, and no one clearly knows the life of these new products until it is too late.

I'mYourTourGuide · 02-08-2009, 01:16 AM

I like the asse 1061 fittings.

AAVs are useless as tits on a boar hog in my opinion. I've had a run in with just one of them in a mobile home, and yes, it had already failed.

PB tubing is a joke.

brad7596 · 02-08-2009, 01:18 AM

just a thought here downunder we have houses roughed in with yorkflex (sharkbite) i think its going to be a maintenance nightmare in the future. we have so many brands, with most exclusive to a supplier. now im starting to see a supplier selling imitation rehau made in china hmmmm. we have a standards boards but it has been found suppliers are selling inferior stuff and no one seems to be protecting the buyer. we had an example of a national hardware supplier selling copper advertised with a brand when in fact it was imported from korea and failed our standards well thats ok how much of it made it back on the recall i wonder.

anyway thats my 2c worth cheers brad

22rifle · 02-08-2009, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I'mYourTourGuide

AAVs are useless as tits on a boar hog in my opinion. I've had a run in with just one of them in a mobile home, and yes, it had already failed.

The ones in a mobile home are cheap crap and are a completely different animal than the Studor vents, etc.

I'mYourTourGuide · 02-08-2009, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 22rifle

The ones in a mobile home are cheap crap and are a completely different animal than the Studor vents, etc.

Oh, well I don't really know a whole lot about them. . I know they're mechanical with a diaphragm and a spring, but that's about it.

nhmaster3015 · 02-08-2009, 09:36 AM

One problem is that no one is truley representing us, the plumbers. The manufacturers have dozens of marketing firms and advertising outlets to bolster their sales and though you might think the trade publications would do their best to fairly critique some of these products the they seem more interested in selling ad space. When was the last time you read a non biased product review in any of the trade's ? Then there's the PHCC. This at one time was "our" mouthpiece to the trade and industry but lately they have fallen into the same practice of bolstering the manufacturer and getting behind the bogus "green" movement. They seem more interested in selling code books and stuffing lobbiest money in their pockets than anything else. Where was the PHCC when AAV's, Sharkbites, and all this so called Green crap were introduced. I'll tell you where. Squarely behind the product. There's two reasons for that. One is there is hardly any voice of the working professional on their boards and the other is because the membership continues to pay dues to an organization that is at this point doing them more harm than good. And its all back door stuff. On the face the PHCC blows smoke up your ass with all ther business practice advice that seems pretty good while what they really need to be doing is fighting bogus legislation. Fighting the big box stores and fighting to keep unlicensed hacks from plumbing and gas work. If anything is going to change it is going to have to be us that change it. Either by phone calls, emails and or showing up at meetings and having a good rant. If we are not united and don't do something pretty quick, you are going to see a continued degradation and dumbing down of our profession (never say trade, electricians have a trade, carpenters have a trade, we have a profession)

BatonRougePlumb · 02-08-2009, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nhmaster3015

One problem is that no one is truley representing us, the plumbers. The manufacturers have dozens of marketing firms and advertising outlets to bolster their sales and though you might think the trade publications would do their best to fairly critique some of these products the they seem more interested in selling ad space. When was the last time you read a non biased product review in any of the trade's ? Then there's the PHCC. This at one time was "our" mouthpiece to the trade and industry but lately they have fallen into the same practice of bolstering the manufacturer and getting behind the bogus "green" movement. They seem more interested in selling code books and stuffing lobbiest money in their pockets than anything else. Where was the PHCC when AAV's, Sharkbites, and all this so called Green crap were introduced. I'll tell you where. Squarely behind the product. There's two reasons for that. One is there is hardly any voice of the working professional on their boards and the other is because the membership continues to pay dues to an organization that is at this point doing them more harm than good. And its all back door stuff. On the face the PHCC blows smoke up your ass with all ther business practice advice that seems pretty good while what they really need to be doing is fighting bogus legislation. Fighting the big box stores and fighting to keep unlicensed hacks from plumbing and gas work. If anything is going to change it is going to have to be us that change it. Either by phone calls, emails and or showing up at meetings and having a good rant. If we are not united and don't do something pretty quick, you are going to see a continued degradation and dumbing down of our profession (never say trade, electricians have a trade, carpenters have a trade, we have a profession)

I agree with you 100%.

I blame the plumbing contractors and not the manufacturers. It is ironic that many of the posts complaining about these new products are actually using them. Plumbers have been using copper pipe and brass for over 60 years. It appears the plumbers are always anxious to try new plastic products when they know they do not have a long history of testing and proving their life expectancy. We get asked about new products almost daily and we tell our customers to stick with the copper even though copper does get pinhole leaks in as few as 5 to 15 years. I think customers are not willing to take a chance, willing to listen, and the specs on blue prints can be modified. If you are concerned and want to drive away these new products call your local newspaper and have articles written. You will even get to throw in a plug for your company.

22rifle · 02-08-2009, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I'mYourTourGuide

Oh, well I don't really know a whole lot about them. . I know they're mechanical with a diaphragm and a spring, but that's about it.

It's the rubber diaphragm that is the problem. The Studor vents don't have those.

user823 · 02-08-2009, 12:48 PM

Sorry but I 100% completely disagree. Show me any problems found with Viega or Wirsbo? Viega is the largest manufacturer of pex pipe in the world. They have over 25 years of proven installations, no problems, no lawsuits etc. How much longer do you need? I"m getting tired of a couple of folks here bashing the industry, it's getting really old.
Just like any other product in our industry you can buy junk or you can buy the good stuff, that's the way it's always been. Bashing the entire pex industry is uncalled for.
Pex is now the norm and it's here to stay. This isn't even close to the same scenerio as the old quest pipe, not even in the same ballpark.
I'll take that bet regarding viega or wirsbo any day. Bottom line, use quality materials and stay away from the big box store garbage.

02-07-2009, 03:12 PM	#1
nhmaster3015 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: S. Maine Posts: 2,057 My Photos	I am not just an old grouch I know that a lot of the topics and or products that I get on a rant about seem like I am just an old timer that is against new stuff. But here's the real reason why I am against some of this stuff. Shark Bites. product integrity aside. And we can argue O rings all day long. My big concern with them is that they allow a home owner to quickly and easily hack into the potable water system for god knows whatever reason. Possibly leading to cross contamination and or backflow. Yes he could do it to a copper or pex fitting also but it requires special tools and a bit of knowledge and may be enough to deter his actions. AAV's It again is a mechanical device that up till a few years ago there was no need for. We always managed to properly vent fixtures without this abomonation and when you get down to it, isn't that what we get paid for? Also same homeowner cabal as sharkbites. An easy way to accomplish something that may very well pose a health problem. Pex. I'm a little waffeley here because my company uses hundreds of thousands of feet of this stuff a year. Mostly for radiant, but we do do quite a few re-pipes and repairs with it also. Again, with the purchase of a 35 dollar crimper for Watts Pex, any uneducated homeowner can again cause huge problems. Also I am beginning to become very concerned with product liability here as I am beginning to see more and more lawsuits and discussions about restriction, flow rate, chlorene degradation, rodent damage, UV damage and, well all the same stuff that torpedoed Polybutylene. I won't quit using it just yet, but I will not be surprized if the day comes when I have to. Tankless water heaters: if you add up the SFU in most any residence you will quickly see that a normal sized tankless water heater does not meet code. That local inspectors are willing to give them a pass is a result of the "green" hysteria that has gripped our nation. As professional, licensed plumbers we have a responsibility to more than just the dollar. Many of the new products get to the marketplace because the code committees are populated with whores willing to sell out the trade for manufacturing kickbacks and bribes. It is ultimatly up to us to make informed, intelligent decisions as to the products we peddle. Just because something is code approved does not make it a good product. Remember that PolyButylene is still on the acceptable water piping list. __________________ So little time, so many asses to kick Protect your trade, think before you buy

02-08-2009, 01:05 AM	#2
DUNBAR PLUMBING www.DunbarPlumbing.com Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: NORTHERN KENTUCKY - GREATER CINCINNATI AREA Posts: 4,495 My Photos	I've been preaching the same warnings for years and even though some of it is falling on deaf ears, I'm watching products that came with strength, only to disappear and become a property owner's headache. My visit to home depot tonight confirmed the obvious; All Zurn brass fittings for PEX was pulled off their shelves, all of it. Now it's QESTPEX...the stuff that was around years ago with primarily all plastic fittings. I'm going to stop myself right here because I've made it clear about some of the things I won't touch in this profession. Does anyone want to put up a wager against mine that in the next 5-9 years, one of the well known PEX mfgs. will be subject to lawsuits due to product defect? Product liability lawsuits are only when the product fails to live to it's life expectancy, or it's use causes indirect property damage, piping failure as a result. Back in the 80's and 90's, PB, Blue-MAX, Failing Dip tubes were all found out, but not on the internet. With PEX being so popular now in installation practices, its time here in the states is a rolling time clock, and now we'll have the ability to hear and know the plumbers, the contractors that use the products and how they hold up as the time stamp grows. Has anyone, anyone figured out how and why we dont have plumbers on this forum, any forum on the internet AFAIK, not talking about how they installed a product they felt was so awesome, was the bestest in the world, and then went in failure mode? And then the piping they installed, similar to the product came out, is failing now as well? And it's starting to show up in Texas, same material. We are embarking upon a different track record in history now because if any of these products that are highly used in the plumbing profession are used, and widely talked about in their use, there's going to be plenty of informational data on the internet of those with plumbing companies, those who installed it that will be forever etched into the 4 walls of the internet proclaiming their use, unlike the former class action lawsuits. So, the sharkbites I use less than 20 a year gets me into a debacle when and if a lawsuit becomes of it, my statements online would very well incriminate me of being liable. It's amazing to know how easily it is to find information about yourself on the internet. Amazing how easily it would be for the lawyer who wants as much money as possible to go after those who installed defective, faulty plumbing systems. Don't rule it out; the internet age is always evolving and I'm sure there's software systems that can be built to follow ISP's, IP's, usernames, locations, reference to phone numbers or addresses. Just a passing thought... Why is the UPC/NPC/IPC passing the use of these failing materials? You tell me. I'd say it is evident that the materials are used on a running start, and no one clearly knows the life of these new products until it is too late. __________________ Northern Kentucky Plumbers *\|YOUTUBE VIDEOS\| Twitter Feed \| DUNBAR PLUMBING FAN PAGE*

02-08-2009, 01:16 AM	#3
I'mYourTourGuide Chase Plumber Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Chase Wall Posts: 287 My Photos	I like the asse 1061 fittings. AAVs are useless as tits on a boar hog in my opinion. I've had a run in with just one of them in a mobile home, and yes, it had already failed. PB tubing is a joke. __________________ Your #2 is my #1!

02-08-2009, 09:36 AM	#7
nhmaster3015 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: S. Maine Posts: 2,057 My Photos	One problem is that no one is truley representing us, the plumbers. The manufacturers have dozens of marketing firms and advertising outlets to bolster their sales and though you might think the trade publications would do their best to fairly critique some of these products the they seem more interested in selling ad space. When was the last time you read a non biased product review in any of the trade's ? Then there's the PHCC. This at one time was "our" mouthpiece to the trade and industry but lately they have fallen into the same practice of bolstering the manufacturer and getting behind the bogus "green" movement. They seem more interested in selling code books and stuffing lobbiest money in their pockets than anything else. Where was the PHCC when AAV's, Sharkbites, and all this so called Green crap were introduced. I'll tell you where. Squarely behind the product. There's two reasons for that. One is there is hardly any voice of the working professional on their boards and the other is because the membership continues to pay dues to an organization that is at this point doing them more harm than good. And its all back door stuff. On the face the PHCC blows smoke up your ass with all ther business practice advice that seems pretty good while what they really need to be doing is fighting bogus legislation. Fighting the big box stores and fighting to keep unlicensed hacks from plumbing and gas work. If anything is going to change it is going to have to be us that change it. Either by phone calls, emails and or showing up at meetings and having a good rant. If we are not united and don't do something pretty quick, you are going to see a continued degradation and dumbing down of our profession (never say trade, electricians have a trade, carpenters have a trade, we have a profession) __________________ So little time, so many asses to kick Protect your trade, think before you buy

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02-08-2009, 01:18 AM	#4
brad7596 Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: melbourne australia Posts: 62 My Photos	just a thought here downunder we have houses roughed in with yorkflex (sharkbite) i think its going to be a maintenance nightmare in the future. we have so many brands, with most exclusive to a supplier. now im starting to see a supplier selling imitation rehau made in china hmmmm. we have a standards boards but it has been found suppliers are selling inferior stuff and no one seems to be protecting the buyer. we had an example of a national hardware supplier selling copper advertised with a brand when in fact it was imported from korea and failed our standards well thats ok how much of it made it back on the recall i wonder. anyway thats my 2c worth cheers brad

02-08-2009, 12:48 PM	#10
user823 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,595 My Photos	Sorry but I 100% completely disagree. Show me any problems found with Viega or Wirsbo? Viega is the largest manufacturer of pex pipe in the world. They have over 25 years of proven installations, no problems, no lawsuits etc. How much longer do you need? I"m getting tired of a couple of folks here bashing the industry, it's getting really old. Just like any other product in our industry you can buy junk or you can buy the good stuff, that's the way it's always been. Bashing the entire pex industry is uncalled for. Pex is now the norm and it's here to stay. This isn't even close to the same scenerio as the old quest pipe, not even in the same ballpark. I'll take that bet regarding viega or wirsbo any day. Bottom line, use quality materials and stay away from the big box store garbage.