Ballcock with pressure relief built in - Page 8 - Plumbing Zone

JERRYMAC · 03-10-2010, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redwood

Or the customer gets his water bill for $15k and says what the heck and finally finds a relief valve discharging into a drain and asks on some on-line plumbing forum WTF is this thing finally discovering how the rest of the world does it...

OR GOE'S TO HARDWARE BUY'S A COUPLE OF 3/4"

STEEL PIPE PLUGS AND INSTALLS IN RELIEF

VALVE, AND T & P VALVE PRESTO NO MORE

LEAKING WATER ! ! !

AND YES BEFORE YOU POST I HAVE SEEN HO'S

DO THIS ON MORE THEN ONE OCCASION

THEN CALL ME WHEN THEIR BRAND NEW

WTR/HTR STARTS LEAKING ALL OVER AND I GET

TO TELL THEM IT IS "NOT" COVERED BY MFG'S

WARRANTY

JERRYMAC · 03-10-2010, 12:28 PM

YES I HAVE INSTALLED WATTS GOV 80 BALLCOCKS

AND I THINK IN THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCE THEY

DO WHAT THEY ARE INTENDED TO DO ! !

PROTECT AGAINST THERMAL EXPANSION

THE THING WITH RELIEF VALVES I HAVE SEEN

THEM CLOG UP WHEN USED IN OLDER GALV.

PIPING SYSTEMS OR A STUPID HANDYMAN

INSTALLS A PIPE PLUG

LETS FACE IT NO ONE SYSTEM IS 100%

FOOLPROOF ALL YOU CAN IS YOUR BEST

AND SOME IDIOT DOE'S NOT TRY TO BYPASS SAFETY

ITEMS THAT WE INSTALL TO PROTECT THEM

futz · 03-10-2010, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JERRYMAC

YES I HAVE INSTALLED WATTS GOV 80 BALLCOCKS

Hey JERRYMAC! Is there some reason for you to constantly SCREAM at everyone here? All caps is considered YELLING. We can "hear" ya - no need to yell.

Protech · 03-10-2010, 03:21 PM

I don't know what code you would be failing me on but the code in Florida is on STATIC pressure.

604.8 Water-pressure reducing valve or regulator. Where water pressure within a building exceeds 80 psi (552 kPa) static, an approved water-pressure reducing valve conforming to ASSE 1003 with strainer shall be installed to reduce the pressure in the building water distribution piping to 80 psi (552 kPa) static or less

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMaster

It fails safe....hopefully. Thats not for certain. Relief valves can fail from corrosion and fail to function.
You cannot get a perfect constant 80psi either like a tank will provide...you hafta set it high or it WILL leak prematurely or possibly leak too much.
Too much fiddling and adjusting,tank you set the pressure and its done.
Your loosing water,even tho its not much.
Ultimately I will fail you based on code....your exceeding 80psi.
My problem with the tanks are that they fail and they can fail and flood the house. if you read on the tanks it says install in a location that rupture cannot cause property damage.....well where would that be other than outside or in a crawlspace?
What good is installing a water heater pan when you have a 3.5 or 5 gal tank above it all that will not leak into the pan but spray all over the room?
Maybe the best way is a tank located where it cannot flood and do damage or a housing that encloses the tank with a drain to the pan AND a back up relief valve set at 100psi to take over in the event the tank fails like your using..

Don The Plumber · 03-10-2010, 06:46 PM

We don't have problems here in Mich with thermal expansion, atleast in the residential field, cuz there is no double check valve, or backflow device at meter.No tank or thermal expansion valve (TEV) required, so I understand the problem, you guys have, due to double check valve at meter. So I have a few questions, or suggestions, that I was wondering about. Especially after watching the Protech plumbing video.
That call to replace 1 TEV , that was leaking, must have taken atleast 2 to 3 hrs right? By the time you drain heater, change valve, refill heater, & then wait for it to heat up.
1- Why not install a permanent pressure gage, right on top of heater, so that you or anyone with a pulse, could monitor it easily?
2- Why not install a valve on the hot side of tank too, so that you could then close both hot & cold valves during test, which would isolate the tank, and adjust TEV much faster, as heater is warming up? {I don't think I seen a valve on the hot side in video}.
3- While the heater is warming up, & waiting for pressure to build, if someone inside uses water, or there is a little drip on a faucet, or flapper leak, ect....., wouldn't this void the whole test?
4- I know you can't make everything idiot proof, but I think there should be an air gap type ftg on that discharge pipe from TEV, so it can't be capped.
5- If an RPZ was installed, instead of double check, wouldn't the excess pressure dump out the RPZ, thus acting as extra protection? And someone could see it then too. I know they can't install it undergroud though, like it was in Protech video. TJMO.

P.S. I'm not saying Protech should have done all, or any of this. Just in general, it seems like alot of expense, & time consumption for 1 little valve, & there's got to be a better way.

TheMaster · 03-10-2010, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don The Plumber

We don't have problems here in Mich with thermal expansion, atleast in the residential field, cuz there is no double check valve, or backflow device at meter.No tank or thermal expansion valve (TEV) required, so I understand the problem, you guys have, due to double check valve at meter. So I have a few questions, or suggestions, that I was wondering about. Especially after watching the Protech plumbing video.
That call to replace 1 TEV , that was leaking, must have taken atleast 2 to 3 hrs right? By the time you drain heater, change valve, refill heater, & then wait for it to heat up.
1- Why not install a permanent pressure gage, right on top of heater, so that you or anyone with a pulse, could monitor it easily?
2- Why not install a valve on the hot side of tank too, so that you could then close both hot & cold valves during test, which would isolate the tank, and adjust TEV much faster, as heater is warming up? {I don't think I seen a valve on the hot side in video}.
3- While the heater is warming up, & waiting for pressure to build, if someone inside uses water, or there is a little drip on a faucet, or flapper leak, ect....., wouldn't this void the whole test?
4- I know you can't make everything idiot proof, but I think there should be an air gap type ftg on that discharge pipe from TEV, so it can't be capped.
5- If an RPZ was installed, instead of double check, wouldn't the excess pressure dump out the RPZ, thus acting as extra protection? And someone could see it then too. I know they can't install it undergroud though, like it was in Protech video. TJMO.

P.S. I'm not saying Protech should have done all, or any of this. Just in general, it seems like alot of expense, & time consumption for 1 little valve, & there's got to be a better way.

You dont hafta drain the tank to install it....what gave you that idea?
Aslong as he set it at 90psi it doesn't matter if the system has leaks....they could get the leaks repaired and they would still have protection.
The airgap is not a bad idea but ones not required on the relief line on the inside so I dont see why they would require it on the pressure only relief.
If the city pressure is really high....the expansion will not be relieved by a pressure reducing valve with bypass until it over-rides the city pressure...which is not acceptable because thats why you have the PRV in the 1st place.
ADD>:IF i where to use those valves protect uses,I would set them in advance with air pressure set at 85psi-90psi
A pressure gauge on top of the heater would not really help much unless an expansion test was done....thermal expansion is not constant.

Don The Plumber · 03-10-2010, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMaster

You dont hafta drain the tank to install it....what gave you that idea?He said in video that he drained all the heat out,( at 1.55 min on video), I thought he said drained heater, my bad.
Aslong as he set it at 90psi it doesn't matter if the system has leaks....they could get the leaks repaired and they would still have protection.If there is a leak in the house, lets say a faucet dripping, pressure aint gonna build up, during his thermal expansion pressure test, to enable him to adjust valve, and ensure it works. He was testing it in video, & getting pressure to build up to 90psi.How could he do that if there was a leak, or someone opened a faucet, or flushed a toilet?
The airgap is not a bad idea but ones not required on the relief line on the inside so I dont see why they would require it on the pressure only relief.
If the city pressure is really high....the expansion will not be relieved by a pressure reducing valve with bypass until it over-rides the city pressure...which is not acceptable because thats why you have the PRV in the 1st place.
ADD>:IF i where to use those valves protect uses,I would set them in advance with air pressure set at 85psi-90psi

Great idea( about air pressure preset). But I'm the type that has to make sure it works, the 1st time anyway, by making sure the valve will actually release water pressure at 85psi- 90psi, when the thermal expansion happens while heater is on,(actual test) the same it did with air. After it worked the 1st time, pre adjustment with air pressure, would be the way to go.

TheMaster · 03-10-2010, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Protech

I don't know what code you would be failing me on but the code in Florida is on STATIC pressure.

604.8 Water-pressure reducing valve or regulator. Where water pressure within a building exceeds 80 psi (552 kPa) static, an approved water-pressure reducing valve conforming to ASSE 1003 with strainer shall be installed to reduce the pressure in the building water distribution piping to 80 psi (552 kPa) static or less

WTF are you talking about??? It fails code because your setting them at 90psi. Yes static pressure is when thermal expansion happens by the way and your exceeding it by 10psi. FAIL
Chrisconner,I like how you agree just to agree.....you FAIL too

Protech · 03-10-2010, 08:58 PM

The valve replacement took 20 minutes.

I don't see any need to double valve the heater in that situation, but I guess it couldn't hurt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don The Plumber

We don't have problems here in Mich with thermal expansion, atleast in the residential field, cuz there is no double check valve, or backflow device at meter.No tank or thermal expansion valve (TEV) required, so I understand the problem, you guys have, due to double check valve at meter. So I have a few questions, or suggestions, that I was wondering about. Especially after watching the Protech plumbing video.
That call to replace 1 TEV , that was leaking, must have taken atleast 2 to 3 hrs right? By the time you drain heater, change valve, refill heater, & then wait for it to heat up.
1- Why not install a permanent pressure gage, right on top of heater, so that you or anyone with a pulse, could monitor it easily?
2- Why not install a valve on the hot side of tank too, so that you could then close both hot & cold valves during test, which would isolate the tank, and adjust TEV much faster, as heater is warming up? {I don't think I seen a valve on the hot side in video}.
3- While the heater is warming up, & waiting for pressure to build, if someone inside uses water, or there is a little drip on a faucet, or flapper leak, ect....., wouldn't this void the whole test?
4- I know you can't make everything idiot proof, but I think there should be an air gap type ftg on that discharge pipe from TEV, so it can't be capped.
5- If an RPZ was installed, instead of double check, wouldn't the excess pressure dump out the RPZ, thus acting as extra protection? And someone could see it then too. I know they can't install it undergroud though, like it was in Protech video. TJMO.

P.S. I'm not saying Protech should have done all, or any of this. Just in general, it seems like alot of expense, & time consumption for 1 little valve, & there's got to be a better way.

Protech · 03-10-2010, 09:02 PM

Passes in my state. Passes the pipe ratings too. SHow me a Florida code that fails me and I'll change my ways.

The only other thing that could have been done in that situation would have been to install a PRV as the street pressure was already at 75PSI. At that pressure the valve is going to piss every time a fill valve closes from the spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMaster

WTF are you talking about??? It fails code because your setting them at 90psi. Yes static pressure is when thermal expansion happens by the way and your exceeding it by 10psi. FAIL
Chrisconner,I like how you agree just to agree.....you FAIL too

03-10-2010, 12:28 PM	#72
JERRYMAC 35 YR. MASTER PLUMBER Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: HOUSTON, TEXAS Posts: 172 My Photos	Watts Gov. 80 Ballcock YES I HAVE INSTALLED WATTS GOV 80 BALLCOCKS AND I THINK IN THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCE THEY DO WHAT THEY ARE INTENDED TO DO ! ! PROTECT AGAINST THERMAL EXPANSION THE THING WITH RELIEF VALVES I HAVE SEEN THEM CLOG UP WHEN USED IN OLDER GALV. PIPING SYSTEMS OR A STUPID HANDYMAN INSTALLS A PIPE PLUG LETS FACE IT NO ONE SYSTEM IS 100% FOOLPROOF ALL YOU CAN IS YOUR BEST AND SOME IDIOT DOE'S NOT TRY TO BYPASS SAFETY ITEMS THAT WE INSTALL TO PROTECT THEM __________________ JERRYMAC JERRYMAC@TROJANWORLDWIDE.COM 35 YEAR MASTER PLUMBER SINCE JAN. 1989 TROJAN WORLDWIDE INC. SALES 281-706-1631 7 DYS A WEEK SALES AND SUPPORT

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03-10-2010, 06:46 PM	#75
Don The Plumber Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 401 My Photos	We don't have problems here in Mich with thermal expansion, atleast in the residential field, cuz there is no double check valve, or backflow device at meter.No tank or thermal expansion valve (TEV) required, so I understand the problem, you guys have, due to double check valve at meter. So I have a few questions, or suggestions, that I was wondering about. Especially after watching the Protech plumbing video. That call to replace 1 TEV , that was leaking, must have taken atleast 2 to 3 hrs right? By the time you drain heater, change valve, refill heater, & then wait for it to heat up. 1- Why not install a permanent pressure gage, right on top of heater, so that you or anyone with a pulse, could monitor it easily? 2- Why not install a valve on the hot side of tank too, so that you could then close both hot & cold valves during test, which would isolate the tank, and adjust TEV much faster, as heater is warming up? {I don't think I seen a valve on the hot side in video}. 3- While the heater is warming up, & waiting for pressure to build, if someone inside uses water, or there is a little drip on a faucet, or flapper leak, ect....., wouldn't this void the whole test? 4- I know you can't make everything idiot proof, but I think there should be an air gap type ftg on that discharge pipe from TEV, so it can't be capped. 5- If an RPZ was installed, instead of double check, wouldn't the excess pressure dump out the RPZ, thus acting as extra protection? And someone could see it then too. I know they can't install it undergroud though, like it was in Protech video. TJMO. P.S. I'm not saying Protech should have done all, or any of this. Just in general, it seems like alot of expense, & time consumption for 1 little valve, & there's got to be a better way.